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Post by Dr. Gonzo on Jun 10, 2005 14:09:16 GMT 7
As my buddy R. Duke noted, "There IS an ESL methodology??" How do you teach? Have you observed how Chinese English teachers operate? What works/doesn't work?
The "Teachability Hypothesis", which has found favor recently, indicates much of our labor is wasted [surprise!], because we are teaching complex grammar [eg, articles], that learners don't see as having a point, as their ideas work almost as well without them. And articles..........let's see some-one here, WITHOUT refering to a cobuild grammar, write a definitive lesson on these little "A, An, The" bustards, plus when of course NOT to use them. Fess up, saloon buddies.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Jun 10, 2005 14:14:46 GMT 7
NOTHING works with EVERY class ALL of the time. CLT has most reasonable durability, but there are some days when WTF and None do equally well!
But I don't have to teach grammar!
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Post by Arlis on Jun 10, 2005 15:19:44 GMT 7
I don't have a lot of teaching experience and use the CLT methology for most of my classes. Hard to make it work, and it doesn't work for everyone. It does seem to be the most durable, and least nail-gnawing of other methods I've tried though (this is all from a newbie teacher's experience).
I have not been in a class where a colleague Chinese English teachers has taught (they don't seem to want me in their class) but have observed from far away as well as listen to the pointers they give me (pick a topic and speak about it - when you stop, ask a student a question, then speak some more - arrggghh) but they seem to be centered around the grammar/translation method. Most notably they love the sage model (I speak, you listen).
I've sat down in other foreign teacher's classes (with their permission) and asked them questions similar to this. Of the 3 other teachers here previously in the last semester, 2 of them prefer the CLT, one prefers grammar/translation.
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Post by burlives on Jun 10, 2005 16:08:48 GMT 7
For better or worse I am wedded to the belief that communication is structured by meaning relationships and reasoning. I am afflicted with a need to see it exemplified in class. So my teaching methodology includes a lot of naive and overbearing CLT and handwringing.
Communicate this!
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Post by con's fly is open on Jun 10, 2005 17:56:04 GMT 7
I don't know what "communicative learning technique" means, and there's no box for "Gwynneth Paltrow", so I voted for Audio-Lingual. Get and keep the little bastards talking, send them out for a break and smoke a cigarette while hiding behind a closed door, paly a game, get them talking again, then make them write for 12-15 minutes and tell them to get out.
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Post by George61 on Jun 11, 2005 6:03:34 GMT 7
I don't know what any of this means.....but I got a dreadful hangover
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Post by George61 on Jun 11, 2005 6:04:27 GMT 7
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Post by George61 on Jun 11, 2005 6:05:10 GMT 7
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Post by George61 on Jun 11, 2005 6:05:35 GMT 7
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Newbs
SuperDuperBarfly!
If you don't have your parents permission to be on this site, naughty, naughty. But Krusty forgives
Posts: 2,085
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Post by Newbs on Jun 11, 2005 7:43:39 GMT 7
Anyone who is wondering how George got to be Super-duper-muper-wuper-ruper barfly, just read the last 4 posts. Erudite, witty, full of useful information, but just a bit too long for mine, George.
Damn, now I've forgotten what I was going to say. Gotta check the posts, be right back.
Oh yeah, now I remember. My 2 jiaos worth. On the few occassions when I have had a chance to observe Chinese colleagues teaching* it seems to me that they fall into 2 categories.
1. Stand out the front and read from the book. Don't mind that you are boring the @rse of the kids, and NEVER ask for an individual response, because the kid might not know the answer and then face is lost all round.** 2. Start to implement a few new techniques and methodologies. Bit of powerpoint, bit of individual stuff, bit of pair or small group work (student centred stuff).
I think our middle kingdom colleagues have got a fair way to go but I have seen a few positive signs.
* I get very few chances to observe my colleagues, but damn if they aren't always in my classroom having a stikcy.
** Slight variation on this technique. Ask a kid a question and allow him/her all of 1 nanosecond to reply before the teacher buts in with the answer.
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Post by hankuh on Jun 11, 2005 8:54:08 GMT 7
Hmmmmmmmm ESL methodologies....okay, I choose WTF. Seriously, in my time here, this has been a continual frustration. As a teacher, I want my students to benefit from my methods in the classroom, and I've tried many approaches to inculcate an atmosphere of learning. I've accepted, although with reluctance culminating with practical classroom experience, that my western approaches from teaching back in my home country isn't applicable to the students. I've observed my Chinese colleagues teaching too, which also includes my wife, and although some differences exist, my methods have become, god I hate to admit this, frankly LAME as whalepoo! So, Newbs your points are duly notified and verified even here in college. Througout the first 16 weeks or so of the semester, students don't do their reading assignments, they don't pay attention, etc. ad infinitum, but lo and behold here it is the last 2 weeks of the semester, and they are drilling me about their final exam. I have nothing more to add to this topic, because WTF is generally my mindset, but my situation is perhaps different, or maybe not. Students include a few adults mixed in with many regular college students, and all their language levels vary. Ever tried lecturing on Milton's Paradise Lost, or Joyce's Araby when students themselves have the WTF look on their face? I've used the same textbook for five years. I can't change it. It's required, and it's expected. A sense of humor helps......does that qualify as a ESL methodology?
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Post by Dr. Gonzo on Jun 11, 2005 9:46:26 GMT 7
Probably I need to fine tune my original post. In a best you can get [in China] scenario, you have 15 positive, willing students for Oral English. Their English levels vary, but all comprehend and can be comprehended. How do/would you teach them? This isn't made up: I had several classes like that, though I did have to exert considerable influence on the number crunchers for it to occur. BTW, Hairy Ass, do you really teach "Parachute Lost" to Chinese kids? Why?
PS George will have 500 posts deducted from his total should he try that crummy post-building trick again.
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Post by con's fly is open on Jun 11, 2005 11:33:31 GMT 7
PS George will have 500 posts deducted from his total should he try that crummy post-building trick again. Hear, hear. A new low, George; I for one will give you a mulligan on the hung over excuse, but sheesh! Um, since no one took the hint, I'll ask openly: what exactly does CLT mean? Maybe I'm doing it already, or should, or did and hated it. It's the kind of term one should drop at job interviews.
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Post by George61 on Jun 11, 2005 13:17:27 GMT 7
Humble Aplogies , people..I truly did have a dreadful hangover this morning, and needed something to cheer me up! I don't think any particular method is workable all the time. You have a class of 40 (or more) 10 of whom are eager, some of the time, to learn. So you work with the keen group, and ignore the rest, or try to spark up the dodos and ignore the keen ones. Get the dodos interested in something, and the advanced kids get bored....and vice-versa. If the English classes were streamed according to ability, you might get somewhere.
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Post by burlives on Jun 11, 2005 13:28:56 GMT 7
In a best you can get [in China] scenario, you have 15 positive, willing students for Oral English. Their English levels vary, but all comprehend and can be comprehended. How do/would you teach them? The text book answer is "tasks." Task-based lessons: lessons where one is not teaching specific pieces of language but where one is teaching successful uses of language. Tasks like eating out, job interviewing, helping a friend to set their vcr clock and so on. The teacher introduces the right kind of language, sets up some controlled practice of that kind of language and then sets up a task. The job interview task is sort of obvious, some kids are bosses, some are job seekers, and away you go. The thing about such lessons is they depend on having a native speaker model of the right kind of language. If you have a tape or a dvd of the right kind of thing, then you're set. I recently started using the job interview one as a first lesson with college level students because I can introduce myself at the beginning of the lesson with a speech that mimics job history language. The speech itself can be a listening task followed by an and-now-you-try task with small groups, and as such the students are preparing for a job interview task to come later. It's a cool lesson and works well. I watched a British Council teacher do it in Thailand, and now it's mine.
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Post by hankuh on Jun 11, 2005 15:13:48 GMT 7
I teach at a public college and I teach Chinese English majors, and the college has become, like so many (so I hear) a money mill. The Administration doesn't like to give too many funds to the departments, so the departments try to develop revenue by offering weekend classes for middle school and primary school students, which I don't teach, but my wife does, but doesn't like it because it's on the weekend, and also the college allows adults to enroll as well as students who didn't pass the National College Entrance exams(they pay a higher tuition) whom are stuck inside my classes with students whose language abilities are markably better or at least I think so, but it's hard to say when you teach 70 students in one class and 16 different classes for two literature courses. I teach from The History and Anthology of English Literature Volume 1 and 2 as well as The History and Anthology of American Literature Volume 1 and 2. In the past the Foreign Language Department has allowed me to supplement the textbook with some suggestions of my own, but frankly, the students are so utterly exam oriented that their interest in literature isn't there and whatever I supplement doesn't fit into , uh, sorry, the Chinese pragmatics.
Hold on wait a minute Cowboy, isn't your job as a teacher to develop that interest?
Well yes indeed it is; however, the textbook, yes the textbook, ladies and gentleman, is the sacred EXAM canon of students, faculty, and the higher educational system in this country (Just this year the TEM 8 or Band 8 exam, which senior university students take had a section on literature and the questions came from the textbook)
So, whether I teach Paradise Lost or "A Rose for Miss Emily," or maybe snippets from A Catcher in the Rye, ultimately the students are focused on the information as FODDER for exams.
Only a precious minuatiae appreciate it, and those few will gone on to graduate schools, but usually their graduate work will be concentrating on linguistics--not literature, and since I teach 70 students per class, class enrollment and time constraints, as well as the multi-faceted varied language ability of my students, whom, let's face it, will be passed, and HAVE been passed through the system all of their lives regardless of their academic merit or performance, is a great wall that even a poor white ass (although excessively hairy one) doesn't have a chance to change.
Admittedly, and I hope no one takes offense at this, you can talk ESL methodologies all of you want, you can intellectually masturbate over the various methods, but inside the public education system here in China, these kind of methods have to have a rudimentary foundation, a foundation that is NOT based on the Iron Rice Bowl Method, which is essentially what the public education system is here.
The public school systems whether middle or higher education are crowded, and everyone wants their erzi or their nuer to have a piece of the pie, and if that means bribing a teacher, they will do it, and most certainly, that means widespread cheating. Guanxi and houmen determine everything here--not merit, not standards, not ethics, nothing that at least sets a bar for some kind of integrity.
I just try to reach one student who takes an interest and that can make a small difference.
Excuse me, I have to scratch, and if the negativity of this posting offends some or runs against the grain of romantic endeavors, I do apologize. I used to have those ideals about 3 years ago, but something about reality eroded them.
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Post by acjade on Jun 11, 2005 15:36:37 GMT 7
On Gawd!
I have a story to share on this one. Since I've been on this rock I've been giving extra FREE time to the student whom I thought had promise. One of them ( and one of the best) couldn't believe his ears when, in response to his question 'I have to join in the Oral English exam?' I said 'Of course!' And what's more odd than his disbelief is that I suspect he thinks that translates as there's no guanxi between us. Strewth!!
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Post by MK on Jun 11, 2005 15:46:47 GMT 7
Using task-based learning can be tough with Chinese students.
They come with a 'right answer/wrong answer' mentality and will race to complete the activity in the shortest time possible. In information gaps they will simply swap papers as soon as your back is turned. They will use L1 unless you are right on top of them. During a wall dictation they will take pictures with their mobile phones and return to their seats. Some of them will flat out refuse to do an activity unless you bawl at them, and what use is that?
Of course, it is all the teachers fault for not setting the activity up properly.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Jun 11, 2005 15:49:37 GMT 7
One of my students (3rd year) came to me after class to tell me that she had not taken part in a group assignment over 4 (FOUR) weeks because she had 'allergies" and what could she do about her zero marks. I told her to bring me the medical certificate - didn't go to the Dr., did she? Told her to see the Adminstration, explain to them and then bring me the 'leave' certificate they gave her. Look on face said - this is not what I expected.
Talking to one of my Chinese colleagues about this - his response: "The students don't try this on Chinese teachers - they think westerners are easy." Then "why don't you just pass her?". AAAHHH!!
If I give extra time to students I don't want them to pay me, but to keep things kosher-ish I let them take me to lunch or out for a game of pool etc. Something we can both enjoy, but they are returning a favour, so I figure it makes us even.
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Post by acjade on Jun 11, 2005 16:17:27 GMT 7
Yeah. Sometimes I do that too but not often. I find that after class here the last thing I need is someone boring into my earcanals to practise their English. And I'm a bit peed off today. One of my students who is now working for You @ Me English school, a national franchised sweat shop for children between the ages of 3-16 yrs old, introduced me to her boss a couple of weekends ago. Sharon asked me to work on Saturdays and Sundays as well as participating in the July Summer Camp. Okay. The money offered after negotiations was good and so... to cut a long story short, after classes this morning and getiing a quick fix from the saloon I tootled down the hill and when I arrived at the school Sharon ( school owner)said, ' you here today? I not ring you today. You come tomorrow and then once in the month.' After considerable mirroring I get the message. White face. Enrol students for summer camp.'
'Bye bye'
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Post by Hamish on Jun 11, 2005 16:19:43 GMT 7
I have a deal with my dean. He and I are very good friends.
I give the students the grade I think they have earned. At the end of last year I failed over a third, about 120. The school can actually give the kids anything it wants thereafter. If the dean makes them bribe him for a raised mark, that is OK with me.
I said when I came here that the absolute maximum sized country I can operate is 500,000,000. When it goes over that, I’m just here to watch and will not try to run things.
The point is, he and I want the students to know what they might have gotten for a grade in a real college. It is good for them, we think.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Jun 11, 2005 16:27:14 GMT 7
There are a couple of books I hate using, so basically because the students have actually spent money on them, I will try to use them as reference books. But most of my work is done from stuff I think is more valuable. However, I get to write my own exams - so the students have to do the things I want, not the stuff the external exams are based on. But they really don't want to do stuff that isn't going to get them marks. But then I remember my own student days - how different was I? And if you are being dead honest - you?
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Post by acjade on Jun 11, 2005 16:40:22 GMT 7
Being the only introvert in my semi dysfunctional family I was really into study and schoolwork. My problem at school was lack of really good teachers. At that in the Catholic Ed system all the nuns were busting to get out of the habit and soak up the good life. They leveraged the actual teaching to migrants and would-bees-if-they-could-bees.... NOOOoooo. Sounds like I'm stuck in a sub-conscious habit here. Well apart from you dedicated ESLers. The Goddess bless you. Anyway I guess that despite everything that's why I love teaching. For all the earpicking would be Chinese-English teachers in my classes maybe there's just one eyes and ears open student with a mind like a laboratory.
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Post by con's fly is open on Jun 11, 2005 20:35:08 GMT 7
In that class on Thursday there were 6 students: one outstanding student who drowned everybody else out, a great former student of mine being influenced very well by the first, two terrified students who'd never even met a foreigner before, and Susan (and Lisa, who's a good student if I force her to be but is sitting with Susan ). Susan is the daughter of the landlady. She doesn't want to be there, doesn't pay attention, talks loudly throughout, shuts up for about 12 seconds every time I raise my voice, and is trying to decide whether she can get away with sassing me openly (didn't try it last class, but it's coming). m'kay the landlady. Con's foot is about to have a torrid romance with Susan's ass. And the school will back me up. Hell, I'll tell her mother what a jerkoff her daughter's being, and we'll see what Face results in at Susan's home.
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Post by Dr. Gonzo on Jun 12, 2005 5:01:07 GMT 7
Wrote Teacher Hairy Ass:
"Admittedly, and I hope no one takes offense at this, you can talk ESL methodologies all of you want, you can intellectually masturbate over the various methods, but inside the public education system here in China, these kind of methods have to have a rudimentary foundation, a foundation that is NOT based on the Iron Rice Bowl Method, which is essentially what the public education system is here."
I think we are all aware of the shortcomings of the Chinese education system, THA. I'm very interested in Second Language Acquisition and particularly how a teacher might facilitate it. The frustrations of China are a daily reality, but how would you teach if you had control over all the factors you currently don't have control over, eg, class size, student profile, facilities? I suppose one way of describing the act of wishing for the unattainable is "wanking", in which case all Nobel Peace Prize winners would fall into the category of wankers. BTW I took no offence, as I knew you were talking about Hamish, George et al. Now that lot ARE wankers.
ps Reflections from forum members on how they achieved a modicum of 2nd language competence might throw some light on the subject. Raoul speaks reasonable bargain basement [abuse a taxi driver, chat up a girl] Chinese, but he shares your despair re: teaching. Hamish, who by his own accounts, is a great classroom practitioner soon to be lost to China, cheerfully confesses to "ting bu dong".
So what the hell is going on? Both intelligent, both here for some time; one can speak Chinese and the other bribes his students to handle language issues.
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