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Post by Hamish on Dec 2, 2004 16:09:25 GMT 7
Do you gave any MORE good news?
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Post by MK on Dec 2, 2004 16:45:58 GMT 7
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Farkie
Up And Coming
Time has all the answers though, and unfortunately, you can't see time without an appointment.
Posts: 27
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Post by Farkie on Dec 2, 2004 19:15:21 GMT 7
What Newbs said. And I'm glad we've helped...although having to get sanity help from this lot is really pretty damn sad. Anyway. I too find myself feeling pretty sorry for the average Zhou Baijiu here. I doubt if any of us (except maybe Hamish ) can imagine how drab and meaningless most people's lives here really are. For most Chinese a good meal and a child who marries well are about as whoop as life ever gets. I think this is part of why they stare. They are desperately starved for variety and novelty and stimulation. We have to endure the staring and the comments...but we're also "special" beyond anything we'd ever encounter at home. I don't think most of the homeys really mean any harm by their admittedly abysmal and simian public behavior. I think they usually don't even have any concept that they're being rude. But I'll be the first to concede that this isn't always easy to remember, or much comfort even if you do. Rauol why i agree with what you say i also diagree, cause if most chinese didn't know that they were being rude then why do they laugh and call us pigs, i have on more than one occasion been called a big dirty pig(and no pun intend for those of you who know me as farkie) but being called a fat pig is the least of the things that some foreigners are subjected to. And anyone can tell the difference btween a decent Ni Hao and the obviously mocking " NI HAO NI HAO NI HAO". They steal from us rob us with everything we buy and treat us like sh*t, but then they want us to teach there kids english and help then to become a better country. I will be the first to agree that is is not every chinese but it is 90% of them and the 10% that are a little decent have most times spent some time in a western country. And yes maybe it is becuase they have been kept down and shielded from everything but how long can you use that excuse.
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Post by Hamish on Dec 2, 2004 20:07:31 GMT 7
...They steal from us rob us with everything we buy and treat us like sh*t, but then they want us to teach there kids english and help then to become a better country. I will be the first to agree that is is not every chinese but it is 90% of them... When I read comments like this I think the writer must live in a different China than I do. Admittedly, this is only Sallie’s and my third year in China, and always at the same school, but we have done some looking around. Among other smaller places, particularly student homes in villages, we have spent extended visits in the following major Chinese locations. 1. Chengde 2. Beijing 3. Tianjin 4. Baoding 5. Zhuozhou 6. Shijiazhuang 7. Hengshui 8. Xi’an 9. Chengdu 10. Kunming 11. Lijian 12. Deqen In China, there have been very few bad experiences. Sallie and I have traveled many places in the world. We like the intellectual stimulation we receive from seeing the variety of solutions humanity has devised to solve about the same set of basic problems. We find the Chinese to be more engaging and pleasant than are most Europeans, more honest than the Spanish, more interested in education and working hard than Americans, and more able to laugh at hardship and carry on than are most people. Like most people in the world, the Chinese believe that their culture is superior to others, their women more beautiful, their food the tastiest, and their history the most interesting. I am 63 this month. A retired airline pilot and executive, in my country I would need to retire behind the walls of a “gated community” to escape the ignorant rabble that clog the streets and would have no regard or respect for my age and experience. In China, Sallie and I are able to contribute meaningfully to the struggle of young people who are actually working at the task of preparing to improve their country. The students we have believe that tomorrow will be better than today and that they can help make it so. It is a pleasure for us to associate with them, and to try to be of some help. Students in my country, generally, have no interest in preparing for anything beyond next weekend. It escapes me why anyone lingers anywhere where they find conditions to be completely unacceptable. Teaching in China has many of the same problems accompanying the task as does teaching anywhere. It is remarkable in that students here, at least the vast majority of the several thousand I have encountered, are dedicated and determined to improve themselves. They trust that I have some insights that will help them, and I labor mightily to insure that I am able to assist the maximum number I can. Far from feeling badly about being in China, I think it is an honor.
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tom
Upstanding Citizen
Posts: 124
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Post by tom on Dec 3, 2004 7:28:33 GMT 7
www.necronomi.com/magic/shamanism/illusions.parableHmmm...never heard of the book or the author, but I am gonna try and get hold of a copy now...although I am pretty sure that little insect ended up in a fishes belly not long after....[/quote Of course he did, as will we all. The poet is Robert Service. 1874-1958. A Canadian and on of my favorite writers. He spent 8 years in the Yukon where he wrote Songs of a Sourdough and one i've always enjoyed. The ballad of Sam McGee. Mr. Service was hardly an insect.
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Post by burlives on Dec 3, 2004 10:09:54 GMT 7
Hamish,
it might be because you're old.
I've got a dean here who has to deal with me, some twenty-somethings and several retirement-aged teachers. Aside from the probably significant fact that the old guys have stuck with the school for two and three years, the only other notable difference between the teachers is age. (The younger ones are technically better qualified than any of the others as teachers).
So this dean is friendly, intelligent, capable of good and generous conversation. He's in the 30 to 40 years range. Speaking English seems to give him some kind of chronic pain. It's not an immedate stabbing pain because he doesn't jump about and wriggle, but it is some kind of persistent tension that he has learned to ignore. He winces slightly and his body has a kind of awkwardness as if something were cutting inside. But he defers to the old guys and he's almost like a son, like he has some relief in sharing English with them. He tolerates the younger ones. And he lets it all hang out with his peers (at least as far as same age makes for a peer).
That's merely one story, but it might exemplify something inasmuch as I vaguely suspect that being in the 30 to 50 age range makes a foreigner more subject to mockery owing to respect for age and tolerance for youth phenomena.
And having said all that, I think I've made my peace with the Chinese approach to foreigners. Maybe it's more of a truce than a peace. The big deal for me was that the Chinese alienate by doing things the way they do, but alienation is subjective and other things come up to balance it.
There's another thing I suspect, and that's that experience makes a great big difference in perspective. Coming to China ignorant but past the bloom of youth makes one ripe for distress under the eyes and salutations of Our Chinese. I'd guess it to all look different if one is supported by independent knowledge of one's worth.
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Post by Sunaru on Dec 3, 2004 10:31:16 GMT 7
I have been flat out brushed up against and challenged in hallways by young male students showing off for their friends. Now, before any of the impotently wise on here begin to spew out crap about my being a person who likes to fight, a) you dont know me so back off and b) that is when I am not working. At work I am professional and all business when I am off duty and away from my co-workers and clients (ie students) what I do is my business. So you can try and discredit the Farkie but his experience has been mine. Perhaps a tour in the Dongbei and hanging with people below the age of 30 would enlightent some of our members to what others have lived through.
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Post by burlives on Dec 3, 2004 12:41:24 GMT 7
... about my being a person who likes to fight, a) you dont know me so back off and... That's funny. But I know what you mean. There is some kind of physical thing going on in crowds and corridors and walking down the street. I used to have this thing with middle-school students. If I found myself out on my bicycle when classes were over for the day, I'd have to deal with ironic, mocking "Foreigner! Welcome to our school!" sallies from these hulking, fat sport-clothed wiseguys on tiny, expensive bikes. On ocassion I would mumble, loud enough to be heard by all the turned heads, "Zhongguoren shuo Yingwen, hao-hao wan-o." But my real solution, after some reflection, was to remember that these pinheads were kids. They could be silenced by being the opposite of the laughing clowns they had seen as teachers in their classes. A measured stare, and then forget about em. It's kind of a pity even to have to do that.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Dec 3, 2004 12:44:01 GMT 7
Would it be spewing out crap to suggest that maybe people disagree with the Farkie without being out to discredit him?
Actually, I do agree with him up to a point. There ARE some right bastards here, no doubt about it. There are LOTS of them- but I still feel that they don't really reflect the majority. I can see how it looks like they do sometimes, though.
The bastards congregate in great flocks around places like train stations. These guys are often the unemployed, the underemployed, and the migrants. They resent us, our money, our women, our relatively nice homes, our changes of clothes, our freedoms, and so on. They gain courage from numbers, and the presence of their stank-ass peer group raises the need to gain face. They are also products of millenia in a culture where population pressures have completely broken down concepts like "personal space". Walking through such a place, it DOES indeed look like the whole country is one big asshole.
However, the majority of Chinese are peaceably at home and work, drinking their tea and watching the latest CCTV spectacle.
The Chinese ARE very definitely opportunists, especially when it comes to business dealings. I don't always like this very much, but I can't say that I blame them. I've been robbed many times when buying things...and I've seen many instances of conspicuous and painstaking honesty.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Dec 3, 2004 21:20:25 GMT 7
Haven't you also seen this phenomenon is socio-economically disadvantaged suburbs, city malls, train stations back home? I sure as hell have - and they scare me more back home than here - I feel as if the potential for violence there is higher than here, especially for a lone woman walking/travelling late.
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Post by con's fly is open on Dec 4, 2004 4:35:28 GMT 7
Yeah, there's something to that. Young males in groups are potential trouble, anywhere you go. I admit that when I got caught outside alone after dark, especially on the weekend, I could hear the smart-alecky tone of voice, knowing I was outnumbered no matter what went down. And in this example, no connections to back me up, the backbone of life in China.
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Post by Sunaru on Dec 6, 2004 22:15:57 GMT 7
Sure we can say that disagreeing is not discrediting but where's the phucking phun in that I say... Now the "spewing crap" comment was specifically addressed as a prophlactic to curb the obvious comments from the peanut gallery... not at all connected to anything anyone has already posted. At least Burl caught the joke... Relative safety... I am humored to say the least. Well like the saying goes... Ignorance is bliss, how happy are you? [glow=red,2,300]Please note I will never use the pronoun "you" directed at one individual unless I have first addressed them by name... yessus man![/glow]
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Farkie
Up And Coming
Time has all the answers though, and unfortunately, you can't see time without an appointment.
Posts: 27
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Post by Farkie on Dec 13, 2004 23:15:36 GMT 7
hamish you first bruv. I 'm glad to see that you and your wife are so well travelled. You being 63 once again congrats. I will just leave it to the age thing and to this wonderful earth with all it billions of people and all of their different expeirences. You seem to be one of those really lucky travelers either that or you tend to choose the road that is worn away because of all the people traveling on it. i myself have only been in china for 3 years and most of them spent up in the north, but i don't blame the north for all that i've seen, that makes me feel the way i do, it happens everywhere. The chinese claim to have a 5000 year old culture rich in everything, but the is total BS. the chinese suffer from the I syndrome; which basically goes, I am the the most imprtant and excuse the language but, they think I,I,I,I,I and m'kay everyone who gets in the way that is why most shop keepers would rather charge you some horrific price once off for something instead of charging you a decent price and have you come back and why the chinese drive like they do as long as "I" can go, make that gap take that corner then m'kay everything else. It is a sad but true fact. The fact that you say you had to come to a "gated community" to escaped, leads me to believe that you did not start to live untill you retired. The students here are trouble yes but that is becuase they had their eyes glued shut and are only now starting to open them and are starting to realise how much they were blinded in the past. As to you meaningful contributions and the respect wanted, I see that travelling hasn't yet widened you view on respect and by your previous jobs, i see why you came to china this gated community where respect is what it is. How do you relate to your students a 63 year old pilot and "executive" realating to twenty- something year old students who know very little about how the world actually works. CON, for you to say young males in groups are potential trouble in most cases true but you can't say that about "anywhere you go". Rather that there are idiots that shouldn't drink becuase they tend to get violent but that doesn't always mean that they are young and not always male , my young males friends and I are always in a group and rarely fight or get into trouble. Next up rauols, i agree hundreds with people disagreeing with me and not discrediting me, but i don't mind that is what opinions are all about, there is a saying about opinions, they are like assholes we all have one but non are the same. So to all of you that disagree please feel free to voice your opinion and even if you do it to discredit me, i welcome and learn from it. thanks and all my love farkie.
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Post by George61 on Dec 14, 2004 12:09:55 GMT 7
OK...to the defence of Hamish and all us other old bastards. Stop picking on us or we will bite. Our collective wisdom will simply dazzle you all into instant blindness. We all know the shortcomings of China, you can also find them in any other country in the world. I lived in the Highlands of New Guinea way back in the 60's.....what do you think the natives were like way back then??.....way different to Chinese today, I can tell you. People are people everywhere. They are good or bad. Rich or poor. Friendly or not. I have not experienced any dangers, contempt or sarcasm in 3 years. I have not been ripped off,majorly. I have been treated honestly by shopkeepers,taxidrivers, nd waiters. I have encountered scumbag School Admin, but don't we all. 9 times out of ten, my local bus will pull up with the door directly in front of me, so I can get on first and grab any available seat. Don't you wish you were like me and live in Shandong?
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Farkie
Up And Coming
Time has all the answers though, and unfortunately, you can't see time without an appointment.
Posts: 27
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Post by Farkie on Dec 14, 2004 15:27:32 GMT 7
Nobody is arguing bout the fact that bad people are around no matter where you live, but anywhere outside of china something can be done about it. I fully understand the bus driver pulling up infront of you with an open door, have you never seen the pictures in a bus, you know the ones" stand for the old and pregnant." You speak about living in the highland back in the 60's and them having been worse, but i bet the natives weren't going on about their wonderful 5000 year culture. Can you believe the chinese count themselves among the smartest people in the world, the haven't had a break through in any field mathematics, science, medicine, arts, sports. They haven't won any awards with regards to the furthering of mankind.I doubt the native of new guinea rate themselve among the smartest in the world. Plus could you even comprehend what the chinese must of been like in the 60s.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Dec 14, 2004 22:25:27 GMT 7
Farkie, I can't quite buy into this one... What can you do about bad people outside China that you can't do here? I know of three basic approaches- have them arrested, sue them, or kick them square in the nuts. They haven't really helped other countries all that much, that I know of. I strongly disagree that the Chinese don't contribute to society! They haven't had much technology as dramatic as, say, a telephone or pasteurization, but look at where their society was while we were doing those things. Today, I challenge you to find a paper published in any of the major world scientific/medical/mathematical journals. It isn't easy. The arts are re-emerging here as the artists finally become convinced that having new ideas won't get you hauled off and shot...the arts scene in Shanghai seems to be pretty lively and increasingly daring. In sports, we've seen China go from a country that couldn't even find the Olympic Village to one that is a significant force in many sports. And what nation HAS, as a nation, won any awards for furthering mankind lately? I definitely don't tolerate or accept any claims as to the "superiority" of Chinese culture. But I don't see them as inherently inferior in the fields you mention, either. You can easily point to MANY nations as contibuting less to the world than China does. I can't think of any culture I've ever encountered that didn't think in some way superior to all others. Admittedly most of them aren't as in-your-face about it as the Chinese are, but it's there nonetheless. No slam on George intended here- it could have been any foreigner- but when George was in New Guinea I'm sure that the locals were rolling their eyes at this outsider's stunning naivete in not wearing any feathers on his head, and grandparents were pointing him out to the youngsters as a warning of what can happen to you when you don't pray to the volcano gods. In a completely different vein, I furthermore conjecture that George only survived his time in New Guinea to be here with us today because none of the New Guineans were hungry enough to consider eating him. OK, slam on George intended here.
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Post by George61 on Dec 15, 2004 7:56:00 GMT 7
Urban Myth Debunk!!!........there were no cannibals in New Guinea!! OK, one tribe would eat parts of a dead relative,to show respect,or something. This led them to contract the human equivalent of "mad cow disease"...."kurikuri", from dim memory. Yes, Chinese brag about their culture,but that can easily be short-circuited. Students here don't have their eyes open. There is no rubbish, motorbikes don't drive on the footpath,etc,etc. That is modern manners, and they haven't been educated the right way. Chinese culture is the same for them as it is for every other nation in the world. Remember the good bits, forget the bad! My point(I think) is that EVERYWHERE is unique, but still the same. Every country has the same problems. We(us)overcome them in different ways.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Dec 15, 2004 23:16:34 GMT 7
Farkie - I said that - from experience - and these guys are not always drunk. As a female who frequently worked late at night, if I had to catch public transport home, I was always wary of young males in a group. They psyched each other up to be more and more stupid and aggressive - it was a macho bravado thing.
The least aggressive thing they did was to make you push through them to get to the door, making dumb comments as you did so. Add alcohol to the mix and they become stupid and dangerous.
The only time I have been seriously ripped off in China is by a taxi driver - and I know damn well that taxi drivers all round the world will do that, if they figure you don't know where you are going!
I frequently mention in class that the Australian Aborigines had a continuous culture of 40-50,000 years, so that easily sorts the 5000 year story, but there is also nothing wrong in being proud of your country - that is why we all get vaguely defensive if people criticise our countries too strongly. And we are in THEIR country - we choose to come here - they didn't force us too.
The students eyes are opening - the lastest batch of papers I have marked are clear about where they see the failings of the education system, the strong influence of Confuciansim on the country, the lack of enforcement of labour laws, the inequality occurring etc etc. Do not undersell the students - at this stage they are learning to open their eyes - if they are able to keep them open, there will be changes. The WTO and other external factors are forcing a further eye opening of various kinds - although with Chinese characteristics!!
Check out the number of serious road rage incidents in the west - at least here people do not get out guns and shoot you if you cut them off - they just keep driving! "me me me" is just as prevalent in the west - only it is couched in terms we are more familiar with - and so we buy into it ourselves, or just accept it as normal.
Many western cultures are clearly 'in your face' about how much more civilised/superior etc they are than eastern cultures - the French are classics at it, the Americans are busily pushing their culture in a variety of means across the world, the English did it for donkeys years, the Spanish and any other colonising nation did it - why pick on the Chinese?
Breathe out - and enjoy your time here - when it gets too rough, you can always go home - the Chinese who live it daily, without our wages and conditions can't.
PS Shouldn't this be a whole new thread instead of in the 'where are you section'? Or are we talking existentially now rather than physically??
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Newbs
SuperDuperBarfly!
If you don't have your parents permission to be on this site, naughty, naughty. But Krusty forgives
Posts: 2,085
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Post by Newbs on Dec 16, 2004 8:46:10 GMT 7
Lotus Eater said:
"I frequently mention in class that the Australian Aborigines had a continuous culture of 40-50,000 years, so that easily sorts the 5000 year story, but there is also nothing wrong in being proud of your country - that is why we all get vaguely defensive if people criticise our countries too strongly. And we are in THEIR country - we choose to come here - they didn't force us too."
I'd have to agree with a lot that you said here. The notion of the Aborigines having a 50 000 year culture is a good one, and one that I am saving to use in class at the right time. I teach mainly 13 yo so it may be awhile before I use it.
In one way it doesn't matter if a culture is 50 000 years old, 5 000 years old, or just started up yesterday. So what? If a society says that is the way we have been doing things for X number of years, so we will keep on doing it that way, end of arguement, then that society is greatly restricting itself. For example, the criticism has been levelled at English society that it is bound by tradition to a large extent. Whether that is an accurate observation or not, it is one which some people agree with.
On a related matter. It seems to me that any country, when it becomes the major player in the world politically, militarily and/or economically, takes the view that because it is the most powerful it is always right. Look at the American, British, Spanish or Roman empires for examples of this. However, it is a fallacy. I believe that when China becomes the major power in the world, and it's well on its way to becoming so, it will take the same view. The notion that the 5000 years of culture vindicates everything will in the end greatly hamper China. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think that I am.
Okay, on to a lighter item. Q. What's the difference between Australia and yoghurt? A. If you leave it alone for long enough, yoghurt will develop a culture of its own.
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Farkie
Up And Coming
Time has all the answers though, and unfortunately, you can't see time without an appointment.
Posts: 27
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Post by Farkie on Dec 16, 2004 19:15:16 GMT 7
was gwaaning all Thank you for your insight and opinion. I however still believe in what i wrote and until something happens here in china i will always. Con as to your comment of if i don't like it here i CAN go home. Well i can't and NOT becuase like a lot of foreigners here i caused a lot of trouble where i come from, I just can't. I come from south africa possibly the most beautiful country in the world but where at the moment there are little or no jobs for most people. Now i hate to talk or bring colour into to but for a white male in south africa it is near impossible for you to get a job unless you are lucky enough to know someone very very important. Having a degree becomes useless if you are white. Myself and many friends even my father where told sorry you are over qualified but you are white so sorry. That is why there are thousands of white south africans all over but especially in London and parts of the UK. However that is still NO EXCUSE for staying in a country if you don't like it, even if becuase of the situation you parents have had to move out of the country and they only place they could find work was in china, i mean it is only family......, and ofcourse it is so easy to travel on or imergrate to other countries with a south african passport. Unfortunately you and most of the poeple on rauols will never know what it is like to not be able to go back home to the country that you love and is as beautiful as south africa. I woun't even go into the viloence issue, if you want feel free to surf the net. To geogre and any other older members of rauols i do apologise if i seemed disrespectful and all. To RAUOL your challenge excepted, you said,"Today, I challenge you to find a paper published in any of the major world scientific/medical/mathematical journal." you did not got into specifics on what the paper must be about, but i imagine it would be about what contributions the chinese have made"recently". So give me a little time i will post my findings aswell as email them to you.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Dec 16, 2004 20:39:35 GMT 7
Hey farkie bro, from what you is describing, I'd say you was a refugee man - economic or escaping violence. And here you is, dissing the country and people that took in you and gave you a chance to make it good again. hey bro, that ain't nice. When we good guys take 'dem refugee fellas in, we don't take too well to them dissing us. Show a little gratitude here boy. Ok - well I am being a bit facetious, but it does make you ponder a little. For the most part, if I treat the people around me with respect, I have so little hassle here and people go out of their way to be good to you. It has been great!
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Farkie
Up And Coming
Time has all the answers though, and unfortunately, you can't see time without an appointment.
Posts: 27
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Post by Farkie on Dec 16, 2004 22:18:50 GMT 7
Hahahaha a refugee i wish. If i was a refugee i wouldn't be in china. there would be alot more countries that would give me refugee statis. South africans don't come under refugee statis becuase although the violence is horrific it is just the normal everyday rapeings, killings, gang wars, hi-jacks, thefts, B and E, muggings, shootings, stabings and all things bad south africa just has an extra ordinary amount of it but it is classed as "normal" violence not enough to become a refugee. The same with the unemployment there are jobs if you wanna work for 5 yuan an hour so like 400 yuan a month which is nothing when things cost what they do in south africa, food and travel prices are shocking you just can't survive, with the cost of living being so high. China did not take me in, i started in london and went from there, i am in china because, I have a great great marvelous family and due to their age it is very difficult for them to get work and make a life anywhere else and besides that they quite enjoy living and working in china. So it is not that china has taken me under its wing, i live here because i love my parents and they aren't getting any younger. it is clear to see that you don't know what it is like living under those conditions and not being aloud to see the rest of your family(grandmothers/fathers, cousins, uncles and aunts)so i leave it at that. hopefully the wheel won't ever turn, cause you don't ever wanna know what it feels like not to beable to go home, especially when you can but you can't. You can go home but you wont because there is no way for you to make a living and start a family or do anything.If you where thinking about going back home for a holiday, it is 20 grand for a return ticket to Saffa land. Maybe china like alot of things is what you make of it, maybe not. Maybe i am just the eternal pesimist
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Post by Raoul Duke on Dec 16, 2004 22:59:21 GMT 7
Hey Farkie, the challenge was just rhetorical...but I meant pretty much any scientific paper on pretty much any subject. The research institutions of America are chock-full of Chinese, and I'd venture a guess that those of the UK, Canada, and Australia are too.
At one point in life I applied to enter grad studies in Astrophysics. I didn't go through with it because it was too hard to get a teaching gig and therefore a salary. The schools were too full of Chinese (and Indian) students who didn't ingest hallucinogens and party with theatre majors all night, poor bastards.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Dec 17, 2004 7:15:47 GMT 7
Exactly - and we - including you, for whatever reasons - have chosen to be here. You may choose not to go back to Africa because of the violence and low wages, you may choose to stay here to be near your parents, but it is still your choice, and if you sit back and say, hey this place isn't that bad, you might start to have a lot of fun, meet some really great Chinese people and find things you really like about here.
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Farkie
Up And Coming
Time has all the answers though, and unfortunately, you can't see time without an appointment.
Posts: 27
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Post by Farkie on Dec 17, 2004 10:17:44 GMT 7
Iry Iry. a
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