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Post by acjade on Jun 22, 2005 7:53:54 GMT 7
I hear you Mr Nobody. I hear you. I thought my students had heard ME, too. I'm in a slump of depression as I type because whatever I say or do the kids nod and smile and then when the exams come around they get on the quanxi train and... what I've learned about cheating since I've been here makes me wonder what China is really gonna be like in twenty years time.
Okay. I know there are some students in China smart enough to write rocket science. And many work their brains so hard they start oozing out their eyeballs but I haven't met them.
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Post by con's fly is open on Jun 22, 2005 20:06:10 GMT 7
What Jade and Mobby said: really learn. Believe that in the long run he'll bury his competition if he looks beyond the mere grade.
Extra lessons and a bookworm girlfriend wouldn't hurt, either.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Jun 22, 2005 23:31:38 GMT 7
Can we tell her to let the poor wee soul have a childhood? What if he wants to be a construction worker? What if he hates being at school and certainly doesn't want to study overseas with millions of expectations riding on his shoulders?
No matter how much "potential" we figure he has - this baby is being given NO CHOICES!!
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Post by Dr. Gonzo on Jun 23, 2005 4:10:13 GMT 7
Ruth: back to the topic.
I've taught Hong Kong kids sent here to live with relatives, as HKers realise education there isn't much better than the mainland, AND they have the money to do something about it.
If this kid's family has 20,000 AUD a year for fees and lodgings, then they could enter the market, and the earlier the better from an ESL perspective. Those who come here at 17 are doomed to forever speak and write Chinglish. I know. I teach them.
Tell me if you need a contact address.
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Post by acjade on Jun 23, 2005 5:30:06 GMT 7
Those who come here at 17 are doomed to forever speak and write Chinglish. Have you any ideas as to why that's so? It doesn't bode well for my Chinese. Bu hao. |
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Post by Dr. Gonzo on Jun 23, 2005 14:42:44 GMT 7
Linguists seem to agree, in a world first, that the vast majority of children who move into an L2 environment after puberty will never gain native speaker proficiency. They can certainly become communicatively competent and at the top end of the scale achieve highly in all kinds of areas.
It's what I see every day. I'm sure you all know lots of exceptions to help prove the rule.
Are you pubic yet Jade?!!!
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Ruth
SuperDuperMegaBarfly 
God's provisions are strategically placed along the path of your obedience.
Posts: 3,915
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Post by Ruth on Jun 23, 2005 16:52:11 GMT 7
Thanks Dr. G. Do you mean the kids go to Oz as kids? This girl is only 12. Mom has talked about 'trading' kids with someone in the west for a year. She really wants her daughter to have overseas experience. They have more money than the average family in our small city, but I don't think they qualify as ultra-rich, and it seems like that is what is necessary. Could you please convert the Aus dollars into RMB for me? Maybe if I could give her a figure she could understand she would lower her expectations to something more realistic. She's already had a dose of reality. We were going to take the girl home with us on vacation this summer, but the Canadian Embassy wouldn't grant a visa. Getting to the west is not as simple as she thought it was.
And, yes, the kid needs a childhood. She spends 7 hours a week with me 1-1 learning English. An equal amount of time 1-1 with a math teacher. I don't know how to change that for her.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Jun 23, 2005 17:56:18 GMT 7
Multiply the Aus $ by 6 and that will give you an average RMB conversion. Hey, I just realised - I've been through pubic, post-natal and so forth and am now entering my 2nd childhood - so does that mean that my language skills will improve??? Yehaa!    |
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Post by acjade on Jun 24, 2005 6:30:45 GMT 7
Are you pubic yet Jade?!!! I am a neo-post-pubescent ( and apparently 100% Hindu) |
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Post by Mr Nobody on Jun 24, 2005 20:41:27 GMT 7
There are exceptions to the age/language thingy, I am sure I recall, but statistically insignificant. And from memory, the majority of those were bilingual prior to puberty as well, perhaps virtually all and learned a third language fluently. Had a quick look, cannot seem to find any data, so maybe apocryphal.
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Post by Dr. Gonzo on Jun 25, 2005 6:58:00 GMT 7
Yes, there are exceptions. But they are rare enough to be remarkable.
Anecdotally, I taught at a high school with lots of Polish kids. The ones who had arrived before HS age, which is around 12, could only be distinguished from the natives by their spectacular surnames. Those who arrived later - even by a few years - had a noticeable accent and syntactic idiosyncracies.
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Ruth
SuperDuperMegaBarfly
God's provisions are strategically placed along the path of your obedience.
Posts: 3,915
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Post by Ruth on Jun 27, 2005 20:59:48 GMT 7
My prepubescent students are learning the th's and v's and enunciating the way I'm teaching them. The older one's try and some get it, but it just isn't the same. The little ones can do it naturally after a while.
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Post by con's fly is open on Jun 27, 2005 23:18:47 GMT 7
I've had the same results, Ruth: the young ones do my accent naturally. Nonetheless, I have to get on them at least once a month to seperate their ss vs. sh, v vs. w, and ff vs. th.
Boy, the zh sound, as in pleasure, measure or Alexi Zhamnov, really gives them fits. They just can't quite do it! Any advice on how to explain to them?
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Post by burlives on Jun 28, 2005 10:00:19 GMT 7
Minimal pairs, I suppose. Activities to identify by sound different words that differ only in pronunciation of the target sound.
The only one I can think of is "harsh" and "Hadj", and you have to fiddle the pronunciation to get it. Any muslims with fledgling American accents in the class?
"Azure" and "assure" is better example, but targets the wrong sound.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Jun 28, 2005 11:31:59 GMT 7
Con, Jade has some pronunciation exercises and activities that as soon as she gets back to her abode she will send for you to cover some of this stuff.
How old are the students??
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Post by con's fly is open on Jun 28, 2005 15:46:28 GMT 7
Con, Jade has some pronunciation exercises and activities that as soon as she gets back to her abode she will send for you to cover some of this stuff. How old are the students?? From 6 to 13; this bunch is 8-9. I don't know how I make that noise- it's just to easy to be self-conscious... zzzhhhh... it's a voiced ssshhhh, but something more. The middle of the tongue dips a tad. I don't know!  |
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Post by Dr. Gonzo on Jun 28, 2005 16:31:34 GMT 7
In reverse its like so many Westerners say Beijing, with the same sound, imagining themselves to be French perchance. I've given up correcting people!
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Ruth
SuperDuperMegaBarfly
God's provisions are strategically placed along the path of your obedience.
Posts: 3,915
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Post by Ruth on Jun 28, 2005 18:03:51 GMT 7
Sometimes answers to questions just fall right into my lap - or appear at my door. I was saying good-bye to one group of students the other night as the new group was coming in. However, the new group included two extra adults and a new kid. Sometimes this happens - "Oh, I brought a friend who wants to study English." Doesn't matter whether the new kid is the same age or ability, or if I have room, or even want a new student. They're h-e-r-e! Anyway, this time one of the adults could speak English. With a French accent! I noticed that right away and then learned she's studying in Canada. PEI. Not sure where the French accent came from since she spent a year in Ontario first. Columbia International College is a prep school for foreign students who want to study in a Canadian University. Never heard of it before, but it could be the answer I will give to any future students who ask me about studying abroad. I'm guessing this is the school Dragonsaver was talking about. I Googled it. Looks like a lovely place, but I couldn't afford to send my kid there.  This lovely young lady stayed and chatted with Crippler while I taught my class. And her younger brother will be beginning with me in the fall. I'm not accepting new students now since will be quitting in less than 2 weeks for vacation in Canada. And Dr. G, if any students get to the REALLY serious stage, I'll be contacting you so I can give them Oz as an option, too. |
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Post by acjade on Jun 29, 2005 11:20:56 GMT 7
Con: re the zh/ sh phoneme.
Place your pointer finger in front of your mouth as if making the hush sign.
The finger should not touch the lips but be a few mm distance from the mouth. Make the 'Shoosh' sound. Your lips should now be in contact with your finger. Model this for the kiddies and then help them to practise this ad infinitum.
The sh/zh is a lingua palatal which means the tip and the blade of the tongue are elevated into contact with the sides of the palate and teeth, leaving a flattened midline groove along the upper surface of the tongu. The lips may be slightly rounded and protruded, but the degree varies with phonetic contact. The vocal chords are abducted.
As Burl suggested minimal pairs work well here.
Also the most effective way of introducing learners into any foreign sounds is to take the phonemes of their own language as a starting point. Refer to local varients of the student's language whenever useful.
Eg. Xie xie. Share share.
Your age group could do a Heads and shoulders song routine and then vary it with 'this is the way we wash the dishes/ mash the potatoes/ make a wish etc.' Older students could learn:-
'Mamma's little baby loves short'ning, short'ning, short'ning. Mama's little baby loves short'ning bread.'
and/or
Mockingbird. 'Hush little baby don't you cry....'
A good website for kiddies songs is:
[glow=red,2,300]http://www.kididdles.com/index.html[/glow]
Tongue twisters:-
She sells sea shells by the sea shore.
Sure, sure, sure. Shorely shorely shorely. Sore, sore, sore, Sorely sorley sorley.
A measuring activity could be a good reinforcer. Bring a couple of tape measures/ rulers to class and measure everything in sight including themselves. Draw attention to all the sh/s/zh words you can.
Eg. Short/shorter/shortest....
Games.
Shy Spy .
Bring a packet of lollies into class. Preselect a 'shy spy' The students have to guess the identity of the shy spy by asking you/ or a student in the know yes/no/maybe questions.
'Is the shy spy a girl?'
'Maybe'
'Is the shy spy sitting in the back row?'
'No.'
Etc. When the shy spy is identified then he/she distributes the sweets.
Word thief. Write a mix of words including sh/zh words on the blackboard. Divide the class into teams. The team to 'steal' the most sh/s//zh words win. You could use the flyswatter game for this.
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Post by con's fly is open on Jun 29, 2005 19:06:46 GMT 7
Thank you kindly, Jade.  But the /sh/-/ss/ thing ain't the problem; it's that damn /zh/ sound. It's not just a voiced /sh/; I can feel my tongue coming down and changing shape a tad. It's such an easy sound to make! But my students don't seem to quite hear it. |
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Post by acjade on Jun 29, 2005 21:52:44 GMT 7
Thank you kindly, Jade. But the /sh/-/ss/ thing ain't the problem; it's that damn /zh/ sound. It's not just a voiced /sh/; I can feel my tongue coming down and changing shape a tad. It's such an easy sound to make! But my students don't seem to quite hear it.  Play the games and do a gazillion minimal pairs. Google minimal pairs and you should find enough to teach Tartumkukem to say 'It's sure been a pleasure meeting you Nefertiti.' And don't give 'em the middle finger. Keep the pointy one in action. |
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