Chinese English: the catalogue

[joe]

It's like a code. It's full of words, phrases and constructions known to be inappropriate but which are let go almost every time. The code is widespread enough that it can be written down.


Hello!

farmer
businessman

(and most of the professions)

beautiful/handsome

go back (to my family)
you can / should / had better
welcome you

too (...)
very (...)

maybe

for (x) times

my (company/factory/school)



What are the other ones?


(It was "farmer" that set me off. I had a class where Beginners were supposed to make sentences about what X did, businessman, doctor, farmer, butcher etc... and it occured to me, well, no, farmers don't grow some vegetables and live in a house, peasants do that. And then it occured to me, I don't know what it means to call China a nation of farmers but I do know what it means to call it a nation of peasants.)

[Dr. Gonzo]

"Nong ming" means peasant and farmer. Its only in English that one is respectable and the other derogatory.
How many students have a parent who is a "manager"? Can they tell you what they manage? A 3 kuai restaurant? A shoe repair business in an open air booth?

[Stil]

Manager??? most of mine would just say 'Boss'.

[Ruth]

I have one student whose mother is a preschool owner. Doesn't have a school, or students for that matter, but that's what she calls herself. Has had one in the past. Has a license to operate one if she chooses, so I guess it's a legit title. Not the one we would use in a similar situtation.

Q: What do you want to be when you finish school?
A: A businesswoman.
Q: What sort of business?
A: no clue. Can't answer the question.

So, when are you publishing, Joe?

[Newbs]

The other generic, found more in textbooks than in day to day conversation, is gongren, worker.

[joe]

A farmer operates a farm. A peasant is a member of a class. That "peasant", aka "m'kaying peasant!", is derogatory in English is not in my humble opinion reason enough to disguise the character of the country. It is silly to suppose, as many Chinese seem to, that Chinese reality can be rendered via the scheme of concepts in English language culture, especially given the wholesale revision of English language word meaning that is Chinese English.

Decoration. (refurbishment or outfitting)

The morons downstairs are decorating their apartment with hammers and heavy drills, and have been for three days.


.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I'm just saying Joe that the Chinese language, in a day to day sense, doesn't differentiate. All the Chinese "farmers" I've come across wallow in dirt from sunrise to sunset. They grow food, all praise to them. If they owned land and rented it out, they'd be farmers, absentee landlords, whatever. There are probably mechanised setups now that allow the use of our English nomenclature.

[joe]

have something to do

if I have time
if I am free

I know your meaning
I know

ok ok ok



On sissy tv 9 today they panned as usual across a group of fixed half-smile, lips parted older people sat in dark clothes behind a desk, the council of something for the party. If you've never seen this before it's hard to explain. People in power don't make any fast movements when the camera is on. The story was about China helping the handicapped people.

[Lotus Eater]

Joe, methinks you are a tad weary of teaching in China!

I would hate to hear what Chinese people really think of my abuse of the Chinese language! I use set patterns of speech and description frequently - because I believe they will be understood and because I don't know other better ways to say what I want.

I am in China speaking Chinese everyday with native speakers in day-to-day contexts. My students use set patterns of speech because this is what they are taught. They have little or no opportunity to use these patterns outside the classsroom - let alone adapt them meaningfully to normal situations.

I am taught things in my Chinese class but it is not until I use them meaningfully that they make sense to me. Maybe the same is true for our students. I am frequently surprised at the depth and fluency of their speech under these conditions.

[Ruth]

Lotus - right as usual. I forgive a lot of the pat answers because I know that is all they know how to say. I've become a lot more forgiving and understanding since I've made an effort to learn Chinese. I and my couple of phrases of Chinese don't do really well out in the real world. I'm less forgiving with the teachers in my office, but sadly, some of their word usage is stilted and as Joe describes.

[Lotus Eater]

Yes much of the English from the teachers is stilted and formulaic. But again - how often do they speak English, who were their teachers (foreign or Chinese), when do they get to use English in a natural way?

We still have the advantage here of having to walk out into the market and TALK.

I have a couple of Chinese teachers who spend loads of time with me and I can see a difference in their speech now - and previously I would have called them reasonably good English speakers. ( And not just because they now speak with an Australian accent and use dodgy Oz slang) But they have been taught from the same text books etc etc and when we get into difficult areas the formulaics return.

How long will it take us to become fluent, answer easily and with variety and interest? Why do we expect more of others than of ourselves? Because they have me as a teacher - no way am I that arrogant!!

[joe]

very


The reason for compiling the list is simple, it's something to teach to. As those of you studying Chinese will recognise, this "Chinese English" is a formulation of English words over Chinese grammar. It needs to be addressed for two reasons. First, it is hard to listen to. Native speakers waiting for standard expressions have to backtrack and decode. It's work. Second, the Chinese heart of these expressions is obscured because the nuance is not rendered even as the form is.

If language is a tool of communication, then there is a two-pronged failure of communication here that a teacher might reasonably wish to address.

Not so much weary as finding a focus.

[Lotus Eater]

Can this take us back to the point of language?

My 2 jiaos worth: Language is a communicative tool. Does it have to be perfectly reproduced to communicate effectively?

Is it open to adaption and change?

Do we teach perfection or the 'get out there and talk' process that gradually teaches us how to contruct in a relatively natural or mother-tongue learning type process?

When we are learning language do we not do the same things as we are asking our students not to do? Do Chinese people say 'ni hao' to each other - or is this an example of an English construction placed on Chinese? My understanding is they don't use ni hao often - they use a variety of greetings - chi le ma?, zuo shenme? etc etc. But the very first thing we are taught is this 'ni hao' contruct. Why?

I don't know how many of these formulas I use that I have been taught that are basically English Chinese - because I don't know enough Chinese to know better. I do know that much of my communication is English grammar with Chinese words. But when I am using them - then Chinese people are responding to me and the communication moves forward.

Do we also teach the constructions we are now complaining about as a simple way of having students communicate quickly and relatively effectively?

[joe]

As part of my current job I have occasion to require students to tell stories, about their past or about their day up until now, now and their plans for later. As a baseline, and since the students know in what format their story should be, I can start the lessons with "free talk" versions of the stories following a teacher example.

That means I can hear the same story as they would naturally tell it (at their level) and then hear it again later with a grammar cop in place to enforce aspects of language.

My own reaction is interesting. A story told mostly in the present tense doesn't sound real while the same story told with adequate tense structuring is welcome to the ear.

That I can understand both versions of the story means communication can take place. That I feel lost in one version of the story means something in the communication has fallen away.

Lotus, I think you're right about learning being a process. If I'm to be part of the process for Chinese students, then there's something here I want to pay attention to. This feeling of unreality (derived not just from tense issues, but from over-simplified vocabulary and strange imperative/modal structures) in the way Chinese speak about things when using English is sometimes so strong I wonder if any communication has taken place. The "my company" expression is one that never ceases to cause puzzlement.




(That sissy tv 9 story. It started with a banner headline "Handicapped China" and I was expecting a story about the ongoing unequal treatment for our poor and honest nation that is China. Instead it was about "the handicapped in China.")

[con's fly is open]

joe said:

A story told mostly in the present tense doesn't sound real while the same story told with adequate tense structuring is welcome to the ear.

True, past tense has the authority of reporting the facts-evokes a credulous response. Present tense, on the other hand, gives an element of suspense, taking the audience into the moment: "What happened next? Tell us, tell us!" This is why stories told in bars are typically in the "So I ask her if she wants to come home with me, and she's like, 'Oh, that depends'; so I say..." tense.