The Truth, and other newspapers

[joe]

How do you get Chinese to tell you the truth? How do you know when they are doing it?

Chinese always seem so surprised by requests for clarification, and they are so monumentally naive, it's hard to believe they have a handle on what's real and what's talk. Or so my experience has been so far. Isn't that odd.

There's the language issue, where having simplified English for their own purposes, they haven't enough words to convey a subtle meaning, and there's an elusive cultural issue too, where the wrong kind of talk gets no answer, and most foreign talk is the wrong kind of talk. And there's the simple lack of a common approach. English language culture emphasises reasons and reasoning, whereas Chinese language culture emphasises... togetherness?


Just some thoughts on a lazy May afternoon. The obvious conclusion is learn to speak Chinese.

Oh well, back to the drawing board.

[nolefan]

There is just no way to do it! Sometimes, it feels like you have to read between the lines to get a clue. As i was reading this post, I remembered the elves from "Lord of The Rings" or the "Eragon" series.... legend has it they they cannot lie to you so they must tell the truth and so they do. How one understands the truth is a whole different story.

[joe]

I ask because of a couple of things.

First, it seems like as a matter of culture "truth" has a different meaning here. But we all knew that.

Second, and more interesting, s something I have become aware of this year. As a native speaker of English I am waiting to hear certain kinds of speech. I want to hear intonation patterns, I want to here standard verbs used in standard ways, I wait for answers that link up in some wholistic way to the original question. And since I speak almost all the time to people for whom English is a second language, I don't hear these things. I suspect that as a matter of the culture behind the utterances being not my own that a lot of the communication goes missing.

Third, there's the lack of language.

It's a big ol kettle of "isolating environment" and "miscommunication", and it probably works both ways, except that the Chinese have some many alternative people to talk to.

[joe]

And if I may attempt to make that coherent:

Chinese speaking English appear to prefer two principles: parsimony and utility. They don't say as much as they should if they wish to be understood, and they prefer the links between what they believe and what they then say to be both diabolical and utilitarian, to the point where when I have observed someone from the outside it has been hard to ascribe coherent beliefs to them based only on what they have said and done, not counting beliefs about family.

I find it really isolating sometimes.

But I think it's a key to our Chinese, and it's vital to get in amongst it before time runs out. I'm not sure, but I think Chinese can't stay this way for too much longer, because the flip side of it is their naivety and credulity, both of which everyday Chinese have in stupendous amounts.

[Ruth]

joe said:

The obvious conclusion is learn to speak Chinese.

So true. However, the trouble for me is that I think my Chinese language skills will never go beyond the bare minimum. I'd like to be able to get along out in the real world with basic conversation skills. As far as being able to convey subtle meanings, how long would I have to study before I could do that in Chinese?

I'm confused about how language barriers turn into not being told the truth. I don't get the sense that my close friends and collegues are lying to me. Some conversations are on a very basic level because that's all we can manage.

Being surrounded by non-native speakers IS very isolating sometimes. Attitude helps a lot. Visiting Raoul's for a cyber chat helps beyond description.

[joe]

ruth said:

I'm confused about how language barriers turn into not being told the truth. I don't get the sense that my close friends and collegues are lying to me. Some conversations are on a very basic level because that's all we can manage.

What I get surprised by every time it happens is what people didn't tell me at the time. I, unfortunately for a person living in a non-English speaking country, rely on words. I tend to want to hear them and get information (in a broad sense) by listening to and interacting with them, and thus with the people behind the words. It's a bit extreme but I tend to want people to be able to say what is true, or at least to have some interest in doing so.

I think Chinese use words and communication for purposes other than this. Come to think of it, probably everyone does, but the deal in China is all the mixed message cues. I don't know when someone is lying, I don't know when someone is using a formula to express something they don't want to put into direct language, and I don't always know when people have some purpose in talking to me and they are letting that purpose control their level of involvement with me while suppressing other concerns. That last one always gets me in trouble. I have an unfortunate desire to believe that people will always want to have their public expression match up with their private feeling.

[Ruth]

Okay, that makes sense to me. I think I see where you are coming from now.

Yesterday I clarified with my close friend about whether she could convey everything she wanted to in English. She can't. That actually surprised me because her level of English is quite good. I guess we will never completely overcome the language and cultural barrier.

[uberzilla]

joe said:

I have an unfortunate desire to believe that people will always want to have their public expression match up with their private feeling.

Serious answer first: That is the sign of a person that holds truth as a important value.

joe said:

I don't know when someone is using a formula to express something they don't want to put into direct language, and I don't always know when people have some purpose in talking to me and they are letting that purpose control their level of involvement with me while suppressing other concerns.
That last one always gets me in trouble.

Are you talking about woman... ...
I better get out of here.

[Mr Nobody]

I think I know part of the answer. Chinese people are more concerned about how people feel, so they say things in such a way that the person knows the truth, by reading between the lines, but the person doesn't say unpleasant things. This is subtle. It can't be done with poor English, or even decent English.

As to what they tell you, and what they leave out, that comes with interaction. I get told everything now, since I am the only FE. Before they would tell one FE, and think that we would tell each other, since that is what they do.

An example is where there was an end of term dinner. They told the FE who lived on campus about it. He had a prior engagement, told them so. So the rest of us didn't get invited, and were miffed that we would be like that. I found out about it next year, and cleared it up, but I suspect the problem will recurr if there are multiple FE's.

[Lotus Eater]

For me communication in China has made me re-examine my assumptions about communication back home. Here I accept that for a variety of reasons I will not get to the 'truth' of everything. I accept it, live with it and adapt to it.

But this made me question what 'truth' is back home - where I don't have langauge barriers, where I can read the body language relatively effectively etc. I think we BELIEVE we know more of the 'truth' - of the match between public and private personae than we actually do.

I look back on my own interactions with people and very few people could ever say that they knew the 'truth' of my feelings, beliefs etc. My best friends had a better insight because I deliberately talked to them. But workmates, people I saw for casual relationships - sports, interest groups etc??? No way did they get anything but the persona that fit in with that situation.

Despite my enjoyment of fun and "doing" stuff I am essentially a very private person and this has affected my communication strongly. I have worked hard to be more open with people - sometimes it has backfired, people who I figured were OK turn out to be backstabbers etc. Sometimes it has worked well.

Maybe all of this is just a convoluted way of saying - do we truly NEED to know the 'truth' - and do we actually give it out ourselves?

[Mr Nobody]

I only need the truths that I need to function. The rest is irrelevant, really.

I have always looked at what people say and what is the truth and the differences. Mostly people don't know what objective reality is anyway, or how to test it. We all live in our subjective universes, and unless you know how to test for objectivity, then you can't know what an objective truth is. (Or, if you want to be philosophical, approximate it closer) All that aside....

You have a good point, Lotus. Part of the problem is that our ways of measuring (estimating, etc) other's subjective truths and their relevance to ourselves are probably cultural, and so are less effective when dealing with Chinese culture. I discussed this at great length with Helen over the months I have been here, and she agrees. The fact that we both make great efforts to make sure the other understands what we are thinking contributes to our happiness, and even then, we don't always get the other to understand and her English is very good. Others don't try so hard. Confusion and misunderstandings will naturally flow.

Our view of reality often confuses them, too. The thing is, we are educated and here, so we should be the ones adapting, not them. Simply for practical reasons - we can't change the whole country, and we should be better at it anyway.

[joe]

daoding said:

Part of the problem is that our ways of measuring (estimating, etc) other's subjective truths and their relevance to ourselves are probably cultural, and so are less effective when dealing with Chinese culture.

Undoubtedly, but they can't be entirely written off. That through our culture (and sundry other influences) we value X kind of thing and here are confronted with Y kind of thing, and a whole steaming pile of Zs, doesn't mean that the original value looses value, or at least is not missed when not found.

Our view of reality often confuses them, too. The thing is, we are educated and here, so we should be the ones adapting, not them. Simply for practical reasons - we can't change the whole country, and we should be better at it anyway.

When in Rome?


Massively strange experience this week: a friend read a western pop-psych book about relationships, and found it compelling enough that he adopted the langugage therein specified. Suddenly and astonishingly this friend is using a lot of communication facilitation language and it's like a billion times easier to talk with him. I'm aware of it being strange but it is so welcome to the ear that I don't want to mock him for the nearly 180 degree turn in his "emotional" style.

[Mr Nobody]

"I'm OK, You're OK"?

Or transactional analysis?

One of those sort of things?

[joe]

I don't know which book. He would only allow that it was western. He was using positive formulas that avoided conflict, like "I respect your decision," and he was saying things like " I'd really enjoy..." where he might otherwise have used an imperative. The fact that he sounds completely gay doesn't seem to be an issue, but I haven't seen him for a few days so I don't know if the the new language has stuck.

[con's fly is open]

Introducing the hottest new laguage mill chain:

[shadow=green,left,300]Oprah English[/shadow]

(I'm too tired to write a blurb. Anyone?)

[Mr Nobody]

Not them, then.

[Jemair]

I don’t think it’s a case of lying to you or anyone else, I feel it’s a simple case of they can see on your face that you are not fully understanding so they try to make it simpler and remove words that are necessary to the conversation, there-by telling you half the story or truth.
I don’t feel that the common man on the street lies to anyone simple because it’s a waste of his or her time nor do I think a friend would do that either because it would shame them latter should it get back to them that they did “this is based on the above comment.

[Stil]

jemair said:

I don’t think it’s a case of lying to you or anyone else, I feel it’s a simple case of they can see on your face that you are not fully understanding so they try to make it simpler and remove words that are necessary to the conversation, there-by telling you half the story or truth.

I don't agree with this at all. That happens too, but many times from a western perspective, they lie. I don't have a problem with this actually because I feel it's up to me to understand from an Chinese perspective. So it is I that must learn.

A very good Chinese friend of mine has become the FAO of a nearby school. Her English is excellent and she has spent a lot of time with me and is somewhat used to our foreign ways (or at least mine). We have been discussing what she can do to have a good working relationship with present and future foreign colleagues.

Of course the topic of the truth has come up. I tell her that it's very important to tell us the truth and if you don't know something it's ok to say 'I don't know but I'll find out' She was very surprised and her response was that wouldn't that make the foreigner lose confidence in her abilities to help them if she tells them 'i don't know'. She is new to the post and doesn't want anyone feeling that she can't do the job and so be worried about it. I told her that most FT will respect her more (especially experienced teachers) for giving us the truth and we will feel more likely to trust her and her opinions. Again she was surprised. As Nobody has said feelings are most important here, it's just that we don't feel the same way.

Sometimes when someone says 'mei you' to you that are protecting their face for not understanding you or just as often protecting your face for them not understanding you.

It is also quite easy to be fooled by English level. Sometimes when speaking to a Chinese person in 'normal' English I can forget that they are not from the same place as i am and have a different way of looking at the world. I focus on accents to help me know where someone is from because you can look like anything and be from Canada (look at Con) Somehow it feels a little worse to be lied to in English rather than in Chinese but it shouldn't. They don't have this problem because it is obvious to them that you are not Chinese from the way you look. Just because someones English is great, don't expect them to act 'English'

Hmmm rambling a bit and my beer has gone warm, well warmer. Barkeep, top up me pint eh?

[Lotus Eater]

I'm not certain how relevant it is here, but a number of cultures would rather tell you what they think you want to hear then what we perceive to be the 'truth'.

So maybe we need to ask questions a different way?

Conversely, I have another pet theory that may or may not have any truth in it, but could also provide a clue if it does happen to have a basis. My little theory is that cultures that have high populations have religions that provide an internal space - so Buddhism, Hindism etc tend to have a more individual method of 'worship'. Meditation and soem form of isolating physical action rather than worship. Cultures that have lower populations tend to have a more 'social' religion - i.e. attending church services in company.

If we extrapolate from this, then maybe cultures with high population or those where people live in closely bonded groups have a higher internal need to maintain a level of privacy about their thoughts than other cultures. So when we ask questions or have discussions maybe we are running into this need to maintain privacy, even with people we consider to be friends. So we don't get the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. We get what people are comfortable in providing us.

Another 2 jiaos worth that could just be worth less than that!

[teleplayer]

deborann said:

I'm not certain how relevant it is here, but a number of cultures would rather tell you what they think you want to hear then what we perceive to be the 'truth'.

So maybe we need to ask questions a different way?

Conversely, I have another pet theory that may or may not have any truth in it, but could also provide a clue if it does happen to have a basis. My little theory is that cultures that have high populations have religions that provide an internal space - so Buddhism, Hindism etc tend to have a more individual method of 'worship'. Meditation and soem form of isolating physical action rather than worship. Cultures that have lower populations tend to have a more 'social' religion - i.e. attending church services in company.

If we extrapolate from this, then maybe cultures with high population or those where people live in closely bonded groups have a higher internal need to maintain a level of privacy about their thoughts than other cultures. So when we ask questions or have discussions maybe we are running into this need to maintain privacy, even with people we consider to be friends. So we don't get the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. We get what people are comfortable in providing us.

Another 2 jiaos worth that could just be worth less than that!

LE,
I certainly no social scientist, but this seems so plausible. Have you looked for any Socio-Anthropological studies along these lines? I'm too lazy to Goggle today but it would be interesting to see what any research may have uncovered.

[joe]

In all circumstances I distinguish truths from the truth. THE TRUTH is a collection of truths that are complete to a sufficient degree. Completeness is most often provided by a key -- the "oh, now I get it" truth -- rather than by an exhaustive list. Chinese, as I see it, don't have that drive that makes some people stop and check if you have the key yet. Oddly, they do have a drive that makes some people stop what they're doing and go ahead and do something for you.

I'm fed up with people not caring about what's true. Truth and perceived truth are the basis for communication. Pick any other basis you like and it'll become worthless if it doesn't rest on some shared, perceived truth.

And it doesn't matter if the perceived truth is only perceived. That something is perceived as true implies that truth per se is a viable concept. The truth, to coin a phrase, is out there.

[woza17]

Interesting posts Joe and Le. On a basic level I teach my adult students to reply to a direct question, keep it simple, Westerners especially in business want to cut the chase. If you don't know, say you don't know but you will find out. Simple. Bosses don't want to hear a lot of bullpoo they just want direct answers with a qualifier,
I often stop my students fom waffling on to a direct question. As what you are going to do about this I am sure this is the same in both cultures.

[acjade]

Some religions originating in the west have niches for contemplatives. The Carmelites and the Cistercians for example.

[Lotus Eater]

Not certain if a Chinese students view will add to the discussion here, but this is from one of my students mid-semester paper discussing language as one of the foundations of culture:

... Occidental languages focus on the logic of speaking. In contrast, Oriental the contents of the speakers words. It is quite often, that if two persons, say one from Britian and the other from China, are asked to tell the same story, Britishman would tell the listeners the logical relations between people and things, people and circumstances or people and time, in addition to telling the essential content of the story, which is totally different from the Chinese one; the Chinese would concentrate more energy on the expression of his speaking, such as fluency, skill and beauty of his words. From the two kinds of different characters of speaking we can learn that Occidental people are always holding a realistic belief and they favour formal expression and clear structure. Whereas Oriental people are inclined to informal expression and further understanding and meaning.

I thought it an interesting point.

[Hamish]

Damn it is tough to get old and more stupid…as George can tell us so well.

What does your student’s comment mean?

To quote Mel Brooks, to me it looks like “authentic frontier gibberish.”

I think it is more than obvious that the Chinese language is doomed as a method of communication, along with all other languages that are non-alphabetical, unless it is quickly transformed into pinyin. As a collection of characters, it cannot expand to deal with the complexities of modernity, having no words for most of the changes the 20-century brought. When one confronts a new character one has no way to determine how it is pronounced. It is clumsy in the extreme to file in a system that can retrieve it (Witness the lack of phone directories.). It has long since bumped against the absolute limit of the human mind’s ability to remember differences between small scratches in symbols within a document. Having worked well when life was comparably uncomplicated, Chinese (And all “symbolically” written languages.) is part of a dying system that today confines our students minds more than does the political system and/or their previous experience in schools.

As you see, I have come to believe that it is, in large part, the Chinese language itself that limits our student’s ability to think clearly. How many times have you waited, not so patiently in my case, while Chinese people talk for an interminable period about some problem that English speakers can dispose of clearly and completely in a few brief sentences?