more questions....

[alexis]

I have some more questions, if anyone has any advice, suggestions, etc...

We are thinking of bringing our two cats with us? Does this idea sound crazy?

What are the average apartments like as far as size, amenities(heat, air conditioning, internet....) Also how safe are these from break-ins?

Living expenses. How reasonable would it be to think a 5 member family could be supported on 9000-10000 yuan a month?

What are reasonable hours to expect working? I have heard some people say 12-20 a week, and others 40+. Why does this vary so much?

My husband is interested in using his Music Degree. Would there be any demand for this? He has previous experience as a music teacher and would like to continue this.

Do schools supply health insurance? If so, what is the quality of Chinese healthcare, dental care, etc...?

I quess the main thing I am trying to determine is just how tremendous, in all possible ways, can we expect.

Thanks for any input.

[Lager]

Hi Alexis: My flats here have been fine for me but I have no husband or cats,,

Really the apartment is big---and has all the perks,,water cooler AC TV etc. The shower is just stand on the bathroom floor with a nozzle but that is the same everywhere in Asia. Western bathroom and kitchen basically...Actually the kitchen might be a frying pan and rice cooker---no oven.

Salary you mention should be OK assuming rent-utils are included. Although you don't say where you are going...

Medical? I have been OK. When anything serious happened they would take us to the "Army Hospital" and I must say it was clean and modern and I had no complaints. I had a fever and they gave me an IV and cleared it up. Not saying I would want to have surgery there.

Working hours I have never worked more than 20---and I thought 20 was a bit much.

Music I think a Nirvana cover band would go over well. ;D

[Crippler]

Cats are generally disliked in China. However, I have seen a few dogs that looked more like cats than dogs. Teach them how to bark....

[Raoul Duke]

Hey Alexis...

Be aware that any animals crossing borders will be subjected to a lengthy quarantine in a cage at some border station, at your expense. It can be done but it's difficult and unpleasant for the animals.

Apartments vary wildly in size and amenities. Heat is often very poor in the South which gets surprisingly cold, and air conditioning is often not provided in the North which gets surprisingly hot. Internet is still most often accessed by dialup- there are per-minute charges that can become rather high, especially considering that local calls are also billed by the minute. A few schools will furnish apartments with computers; most do not.

Note that you're unlikely to get school-provided housing with more than 2 bedrooms, and getting 3 decent beds into one of these bedrooms will often be difficult. The Chinese can tolerate living in EXTREMELY close quarters and may have trouble understanding that you can not. You may want to seek schools that provide a housing allowance rather than apartments, with the awareness that rent for an apartment with 3 or more bedrooms raises the price considerably. Space in the cities is very expensive!

There are breakins here, but your safety should compare well with the USA. Lower-floor apartments (and sometimes top level apartments as well) are fitted with steel window and door grates, but these will not stop a really determined thief.

5 people of teen age or higher on 10,000 will be modest but doable. Be prepared to walk a lot (a group your size may well require TWO taxis!) and to cook most meals at home, and distance travel will be a rare treat. Much in the way of savings is probably not feasible.

Unis tend to assign 12-16 hours a week. They require more out-of-class preparation and their pay is often lower. Private schools will tend to run 20-25 classroom hours. Some schools want you there for 40, but only around 25 or so will be classroom. The rest is office time, promotional work, placement interviews, etc.

Your husband might find work as a music teacher at an international school, especially if he has a teaching credential. Otherwise he would likely have to build a base of private lessons, which will take some time. A lot of people will want music lessons given in a language they can speak....

Some schools provide health coverage but many do not. Your odds here are probably best at a university. When it is provided it will be only for the employee, not the family.

We could (and probably will) talk for years about health care here. In general it's technically adequate (not great) but there are pretty much NO provisions for a patient's privacy or comfort. Pain relief is often frowned upon, procedures are done in a matter-of-fact way that's most convenient for the provider, and medicine here is quite often a spectator sport- especially when there are foreigners involved. Dental care in particular is again competent but pretty brutal...caregivers seem to have as much compassion as the guys who give inoculations to vast herds of cattle. Unless you use an expensive special hospital for foreigners, conditions in Chinese hospitals may well appear pretty ghastly to you- crowded, noisy, and dirty. Some are nicer than others. Vendors often wander through hospital wards selling newspapers or ice cream. Hospitals provide NO non-medical services- patient care is left to the families. Meals are often (not always) supplied at a small extra expense, but I can promise you that you won't like them. Communication in English is usually spotty at best, especially among the nurses and non-medical staff.

In other words, expect VERY tremendous. More so than you can probably imagine. The best I can tell you is that for most people, it's ultimately worth it.

From some earlier questions...
- There are virtually no houses here, only apartments. Unless you are quite wealthy and/or coming here as a senior executive for a multinational corporation, forget about this one.

- No need to bring towels, sheets, blankets, etc. Or for that matter hair dryers, soap, toothpaste, dishes, toilet paper, and other basic life necessities. Local supplies are good and inexpensive and readily available. Deodorant is hard to find in some places...bring enough to last you a while. Tampons are not widely used here and are hard to find. If you take prescription medication, bring the largest supply you can possibly bring...it's got to get you by until you can source it here. Often the medicine you take in the West will not be available here, but an adequate substitute can be found. I love spicy foods and tend to eat a lot of antacid tablets...I've never found them in China and they have to be brought in. I strongly suggest bringing at least a few of these, as well as a family-sized stash of Imodium-type (loperamide hydrochloride) diarrhea medicine, which you also can't buy here. These might come in handy for the adjustment period. A large supply of good-quality socks, underwear, and ladies' stockings might be nice, too.

Bring as many books as you can carry. They're like gold bars here.

Make sure you know some basics...

In cities and most towns tap water here is OK for cleaning, washing dishes (if the dishes are dried), bathing, brushing teeth, etc. but should never be drunk. Bottled water will be available for drinking, or you can boil and store the tap water. It's OK to cook with the water as long as it comes to a boil. Deep in rural agricultural areas, raw tap water should be treated as a hazardous material.

Fruits and vegetables should be thoroughly washed and peeled, and preferably cooked. Human waste is universally used as fertilizer, and agricultural chemicals are used much more widely- and irrationally- than in the West.

Air quality can be MUCH worse than in western countries. This is especially true in industrial corridors and in the North during the winter.

Crossing a busy street here is an acquired skill. Keep a close eye on the kids until they've acquired it too. It's often done one lane at a time; you stand on the dividing stripes until you get an opening. Take the oncoming bicycles almost as seriously as you take oncoming cars. Chinese drivers/cyclists often ignore signs, lights, lane dividers, rights-of-way, logic and reason, and basic rules of human civilization.

Be aware that China is the World's Largest Smoking Area. Near-universal among adult men...also common among women but often only behind closed doors. People smoke freely in elevators, doctors' waiting rooms, you name it. No-Smoking signs are typically ignored, as will be your requests to not smoke. If you're offered a cigarette here, take it. Say "Xie xie" (thank you), slip it into a pocket, and say "Yi huir chou" (I'll smoke it later). You can throw the cigarette away later if you want. or save them up and mail them to me. Offering a cigarette is a gesture of friendship...take it as such.

Always accept even the smallest gift- even a business card- using BOTH hands. Present yours the same way.

Upon entering a home, polite behavior dictates that you should remove your shoes at the door and accept a pair of slippers. Shoes that can be slipped on and off without tying make life a little easier.

Electricity is 220-volt, 50 cycle. Check the labels on your devices to make sure they're compatible. If you bring over devices, you should bring adapters for both voltage AND plug prongs. There are fairly standard 2- and 3-prong configurations here, but you can and will see everything under the sun. Those American directional plugs (the ones where one prong is wider than the other) can be problematic here. Items that require 60-cycle power simply won't work here at all. Best advice is to buy electrical/electronic devices here in China- selection and quality are usually good, and prices are often modest. A digital camera and a personal Discman-type CD player (maybe one for each teen and one for you in your case) are nice things to bring over with you, though.

You DO know how to eat with chopsticks, right? And so do your kids? If not, start a crash course right now! Go to a Chinese restaurant and ask them to show you...much better than trying to tell you here. Set up a big bowl of redskin peanuts...when you can eat them easily with chopsticks, you're ready. Cut up your dinners into bite-sized pieces and then make yourself eat them with chopsticks. Many restaurants don't have forks and knives available, although they're easily found in stores and markets. Don't worry, you'll be pros at this in a few weeks...

I seem to remember an August arrival for you. Be prepared for Suzhou (and most of the rest of China) to be blazing, beastly, stinking hot at that time...same latitude as Jacksonville, Florida! However, Suzhou seems to get a lot colder in the winter than Jacksonville, made worse by poor heat and little or no building insulation. Chinese people usually wear lots of layers indoors, all the time, throughout the winter. Eating dinner in your overcoat is not all that uncommon. It rains often except during the height of the Summer.

Finally, if you haven't been reading the vaccinations/immunizations threads going in this same section, PLEASE do so!

Alexis, if you'd like, let me know when you're arriving in Suzhou. I'll try to get over and help you get oriented if I can.

[Noodles]

Hey Raoul, That's some really good advice. I know we haven't had too many newbie questions, as most of us have been here for a while now and got all that out of the way at "the other place" but as you continue to grow, hopefully you'll have a lot more fresh arrivals. Reading through your post it struck me that a slightly edited version of that would make a really good sticky somewhere.

Just a thought, but it might save a lot of repeating in the future.

[con's fly is open]

I should add: THEY DON'T SELL DENTAL FLOSS OR DEODORANT IN CHINA. At least not in my town, so at best they're specialty items. Bring a year's supply.
And bring your own music. The Chinese taste in tunes is... different.
To teach a music AND English class might catch on. All kids have to learn our lingo anyway, so their folks would be killing 2 birds with one stone. But I agree with Raoul: adults might be a tougher sell.

[Lager]

Excellent Raoul just one quibble...I have had -at 3 jobs counting the next one-unlimited free internet (and the computer itself of course). First place was dial-up and a bit pokey at times but still free...

Also I have had unlimited free drinking water---I even cook with it...Of course these are questions to ask a place.

Apartments do vary and that could be an issue...At Shaoxing Uni they had massive apts but this is not always the case. Where I am now they do not and a family of 4 quit basically for that reason. I think they are more used to single people and are not always prepared for a family...

One last thing are phones..Public phones here remain a mystery to me. They only take cards and I never seem to have the correct one. If you have a good hand-phone bring it and change the chip...Or buy a decent one. This is a mistake I made buying a cheap one that is almost useless...

[George61]

Lager!..( where's the "DOH! smiley?)
Phones here are a piece of piss, man...every little stall on the street has a couple of phones....dial your number...blah,blah,blah..hang up and out pops a little bit of paper with the cost printed on it. Couldn't be simpler!...........and you don't even get ear infections!

[Raoul Duke]

Thanks Noodles! I guess there is a lot of basic Survival in here...I'll try to re-derange some things into one.

I do miss newbie questions...one of the few things about Chez Fasciste I do miss. If and when the m'kaying web crawlers ever get to us and we become searchable, I hope we'll get a lot more. I see providing a community for expats to exchange information ("shoot the poo" is the phrase that comes to mind), and provide mutual support, as one of the primary pillars of this forum. Helping newcomers ease the transition Down the Rabbit Hole is the other one. So I'm thrilled to see posts like Alexis' come up. Here's to many more.

Damn, Con, good call....I totally forgot about dental floss. Maybe it's because I hate flossing so much. I grew up in the generation when they told you regular brushing was enough...lying bastards!
Anyway. Yes, bring lots of floss. When I go to Hong Kong I always remember to buy the Military Installation Size package, if I'm not too stoned.

If you're in Suzhou you'll have access to Rock Station and at least some decent CDs, but do bring your favorites along with you. Most Chinese pop music is sonic aspartame, and it sucks ass. They look to The Backstreet Boys and The Carpenters to "rough things up", if that tells you anything. Some Chjnese instrumental classical music is quite nice, but the classical vocal styles sound like cat torture. Western classical music is popular here, so if you like that China will provide a lot of shopping bargains.

Lager's and George's comments reflect the diversity of experience here. I've never ever worked at a school that provided internet access, much less a computer, and I've never gotten free bottled water. My schools gave us "free internet access", but we had to hang around the scruffy malodorous child-infested smoke-free school in order to use it via a slow, virus-ridden 1992-vintage PC with Chinese-language software.

I always used to say I could deal with most things in China save the "5 Bs": Breakfast, Bathrooms, Bureaucracy, Bad medicine, and Bogus pop music. You'll see.

[alexis]

Raoul and others, thanks so much for all of your info....WE are so incrediable nevevous... IT seems it could go either way. We could end up picking a really sux school and our experiences end up being horrible or we could get lucky and end up in a better situation. I just wish there was a sure shot way to know. I would like to post different job offerings when we get them for we can get feedback before deciding. I know that most of that will not start until we are already taking the TEFL course. I would really like to take you up on your offer of meeting us and helping us get situated. We arrive on August 11th in the evening and then will be at some apartment across the street from The Boland School in Suzhou wherever that is....I am sure you will recognize our bunch if you see us wondering around Suzhou aimlessly with that glazed look in our eyes....

[slim]

alexis said:

...I am sure you will recognize our bunch...

Oh yeah...



...please, please, please post regular updates of everything that happens to you here. This I gotta see!

[George61]

poo Slim...you coulda posted a warning!! Bloody 'ell, mate, I almost lost my lunch!

[Raoul Duke]

Alexis,
one thing to accept about coming here....there really is no certainty and there really are no guarantees. Nothing we could possibly say to you could really prepare you for the adventure you're about to undertake. I had studied China all my life and I was still stunned when I got here. I've been here several years now and I'm still stunned.

Schools here are even harder to predict. We have a board full of smart, knowledgeable, experienced people here yet I would expect that anyone here who's worked at least two jobs in China has at least one employment horror story to tell. A school can be heaven for one person and hell for another. Just come ready to deal with whatever happens. One consolation- there is still a shortage of reasonably sane expat English teachers here. No one should ever have to be out of a job for long. And if you get into an unendurable situation, it's possible to simply move on.

Bringing kids over here adds a certain level of responsibility most of us don't have now or at least didn't arrive here with. You ARE taking a risk by doing this...you can either accept that, or not accept it and not come.

I know it's a big step...but try to relax and enjoy the ride a bit. If you get all tense and vaporlock then you're going to hurt yourself in this process.

I'll try really hard to be there the 11th. We'll all go to Qian Tang Cha Ren and order up some world-class tea and talk about it. Meanwhile: breathe. I was once where you are now, and I'll do my best to help you feel better. You'll find others from both sides of the Pacific (and/or the South China Sea) ready to do the same. Relax. Enjoy your last normal days at home. You've got friends here, OK?

Slim: surely they won't look that glazed! Bejaysus!

[alexis]

Thanks again, I do feel like we have friends there. I am going to purchase our tickets off of priceline next week (still saving up a bit of dough) and I will let you know exactly what airline, etc. We do not get our apartment until the 12th so the first night we have to stay in some hotel after getting to Suzhou. Someone from the school is going to pick us up at the airport and take us to Suzhou. Can we meet in Suzhou? I will also give you the name of the hotel. Thanks, Alexis

[Raoul Duke]

Sure, Alexis, we'll meet in Suzhou. The train ride is very short and very cheap. You'll get to see some of Shanghai on the way there. Let me know where you'll be, and when. I'll also PM you my phone numbers.

We can meet after a couple of days if you prefer. It's hard to tell which will dominate when you arrive...the jet lag or the adrenaline!

I didn't suffer much from jet lag this trip. I didn't sleep on the plane over; I finally slept again in my hotel at Narita Airport in Japan. I think this eased the transition to the new time zones.

[George61]

Alexis...you and yours gotta decide for yourselfs. If you put it off, you may or may not regret it. If you get here and don't like it, well....c'est la vie. The point is "suck it and see" as the actress said to the Bishop..............as she handed him a lemon (some of you are filthy).
I remembered you said you have been to the Carribean..forget it...China is nothing like the Carribean.
You are planning a total change of lifestyle..be prepared for that and plan for that....don't worry about stuff like dental floss and deodorant...people manage to live without poo like that..You are lucky you are starting off in Suzhou. I haven't been there, but it's on my list...although if the dreaded Raoul is going to meet you there, God knows what will happen.
Think of Sundance and his mate at the top of that cliff....shut your eyes and take a running jump!
I knew absolutely ZERO about China before I got here, but I said..."WTF", and jumped on the plane. You'll never know, if you don't have a go!!

[Ruth]

Alexis - George's advice about jumping off the cliff is good, but don't listen to him about deodorant. My supply from home ran out just as the weather became stinking hot. The stuff I got here is useless. Bring a year's supply for everyone who needs it. If you are larger than a size 12, bring clothes. I'm an XXL here and some of them still don't fit. On the other hand, I've found a great dressmakers shop and can get silk and silk-like clothes made for about $10 US. My husband can get a suit made for 150 RMB - less than $20 US. I don't know about shoes in the big cities, but my husband, at size 10, is at the top limit of what's available in our small city.

We purchased a laptop before coming here. Our flat had dial up internet access that we were responsible for financially. We opted for broadband and the cost has been well worth it. We could use the computer lab at the school - when the school/lab is open and not occupied by students. Much more convenient having our own at home. If you can afford it, you might want to consider purchasing a laptop and bringing it with you. Do your children use the internet for their home schooling? or at least a computer? Don't count on one being available in your flat.

My cousin has been teaching in Korea for 5 years and told me that everyone (not an exaggeration) gets sick their first few weeks after arriving. He told me to stock up on cough medicine and we did. Good advice. I brought 4 bottles with us and we went through 3 in the first month. Haven't been sick since. There are lozenges here - as effective as Halls, but with a different flavor, so it's not necessary to bring those. But bring some cough syrup to guzzle until your throat and lungs adapt. We arrived in Nov to coal smoke and cold air. Maybe your arrival in Aug won't produce the symtoms we had - but it's better to be prepared.

My analogy to myself at this time last year was 'If you want to walk on water, you have to get out of the boat.' So think of all your comforts as the boat. Get out and come to China. Or picture yourself on George's cliff and jump.

[Ruth]

Here's what's on my list to bring back with me from my trip home next week (8 days and counting!), just as an example of what we can't find here and need/want. Keep in mind I don't live in a city with an international store where I can purchase the finer things in life (like some of our fellow bar-mates):
hair dye - I have more gray than I want to show and finding blonde hair dye in China is tricky. They made me a brassy blonde and I don't like it, so am bringing a year's supply of the color I do want to be
polident - they don't even know what that is here
Buckleys - great brand of cough medicine sold in Canada
cold and flu medicine - we used two boxes last winter
dried spaghetti sauce mixes - can't quite replicate the flavor we want with what we've found here
oregano - same reason as above
Stove Top stuffing - 2 boxes - one for Thanksgiving and one for Christmas
Cranberries - 2 cans - same as above
deodorant - see above post - a year's supply
vitamins
socks
undershirts for my husband - he's larger than what we can buy here
chapstick - very windy here. I saw Chapstick at a Walmart in Dalian, but it was more expensive than what I pay at home
conditioner - shampoo is plentiful, as is shampoo with conditioner. Sometimes my hair needs help.
popcorn - what we can find here is sweet and only about half of the kernels pop. Hope I have room for Orvilles on the return trip.
Santa beard - they have costumes for sale here. We had a nice one made for my husband so he can go all out with the holiday this year, just need a good beard to complete the outfit. We (I mean Santa) passed out candies and nuts to the students on Christmas Day and they really enjoyed it.
Candy canes - same as above. They don't know what they are, so I had my mom purchase some after Christmas last year, and we'll be bringing them back with us.
white shoe polish - don't know why I can't find white, they have brown, black and neutral.
shaving cream - it's available, but expensive
aftershave - haven't found anything acceptable
US and Canadian money - small bills and coins to show the students. Maybe enough rolls of pennies to give out.
Maps - our classrooms are sadly lacking in the basics
calendar - that shows the changing seasons - to teach season and months.
Books, books, books - ones to use for teaching and ones to read. As many as we can fit in. We plan to hit used book stores.

[beerdang]

alexis said:

Thanks again, I do feel like we have friends there. I am going to purchase our tickets off of priceline next week (still saving up a bit of dough) and I will let you know exactly what airline, etc. We do not get our apartment until the 12th so the first night we have to stay in some hotel after getting to Suzhou. Someone from the school is going to pick us up at the airport and take us to Suzhou. Can we meet in Suzhou? I will also give you the name of the hotel. Thanks, Alexis

I posted a lot of travel agencies on another thread. You can try them. They were run by chinese , and they will try to speak to you in chinese first. But you can ask them to swich to english. I fly from Detroit to Shanghai last summer. I did pay more than $800. This year should not be too much of a difference.

[Raoul Duke]

George, the lady is talking about coming here with 3 children. Taking a screaming 300-foot cliff dive into the Lagoon of Dumb Luck becomes a little different. But George is right about either doing it or not...as I said before, this move involves some risk. Only Alexis can decide if she can tolerate that risk or not.

Remember that each year thousands of foreigners come here to live and work. Almost all of them return home in one piece. This place is weird, all right, but it's not like you're colonizing Mars here. Many of us, including me, have come to think of it as Home.

Definitely with Ruth on the deodorant and dental floss. I mean, we love George and all, but Fred Astaire he ain't. Bring a starter set with you.

TO FIND DEODORANT IN THE HINTERLANDS (ie places that aren't Shanghai): Find the Avon store. In this land of desperately entrepreneurial people nearly every town has one, even the ones without indoor plumbing. They have doedorant! It only comes in roll-on, no stick or spray, but the quality is excellent and the lovely Rose or Lilac scents make me feel a little like Rita Hayworth.

(Newbie note: Multi-Level Marketing is technically illegal in China. Sleazeballs like Avon, Amway, NuSkin, and 10,000 different "nutritional supplement" companies sell from fixed stores rather than in people's homes. Technically.)

I'm also with Ruth on broadband internet access. The only way to fly and definitely available in Suzhou and most other major cities.

She's a little overboard on the shopping list, though...

I don't remember where Beerdang's post is, but unlike the rest of us, Beerdang (a Chinese national living in the USA, where the women throw themselves at him trying to get a Green Card) occasionally knows what the hell he's talking about.

One easy suggestion on airfare: try www.flychina.com They might save you some money.

[beerdang]

Alexis, you can call 1-800-528-3500 for tickets. They gave me a good deal.

I don't see you want to change your mind. You had the plan. The question now is how to execute it.
I think you are doing your due diligence--ask as many questions as you can, bring as many things as you want, and get as
much as help other people can offer. China is not a wild beast that eats everyone. But it is very different country from US or other asian counties.
It is normal if you found yourself overreact sometimes. Get ready for some roller-coaster ride. Life will be too boring without it.

[Raoul Duke]

beerdang said:

Get ready for some roller-coaster ride. Life will be too boring without it.

Amen, Brother!

[George61]

I was sitting comfortably in the downstairs bar at the Sofitel on Sunday, with the G/F, savouring a cold, but expensive(plus 15%service charge,the mongrels) beer, while watching a steady stream of little Amway enthusiasts traipsing through on their way to a sales conference. It may be technically illegal, but it sure as hell is blatantly obvious. I don't know why, but Amway really gets my goat!
Among the stupid things I brought to China were Bandaids..........I didn't research at all. I just packed my bags and jumped on the plane. As I was leaving the Chinese Embassy with my visa, a Chinese woman asked me if I spoke any Chinese...I said "yes...TsingTao!"

[Ruth]

Raoul, I got the roll-on deodorant from the local Avon store. Not as good as what I'll be bringing back with me from Canada.

And just what items are 'overboard' on my list? Remember I don't live near a Walmart or Carrefour. I live in the boonies of China.

[Raoul Duke]

Sure, I use foreign deodorants if I can get them, too. Every time I go to Hong Kong I bring back a load of Right Guard sticks. But the Avon stuff is perfectly fine. It does the job. I actually rather like it. It's adequate and it's readily available right here in China. You don't have to sit there and Make Your Own Gravy.

Really just teasing on the shopping list. I'm sure that if I ever get back I'll go berserk in a Wal-Mart somewhere! Although an awful lot of your list is available here in Shanghai....and things like oregano, vitamins, conditioner, and chapstick I've found about everywhere.

OK, one item throws me. Why would anyone in their right mind want dried spaghetti sauce mix?