ESL methodologies

[George61]

BTW I took no offence, as I knew you were talking about Hamish, George et al.
Now that lot ARE wankers.

I'll pretend I didn't see that!
I suppose, if the truth beknown, most of us are just happy to get through the day...especially in Summer. When we get the occasional student who really wants it, we give it to them in a suitable and proper form, catering to their specific needs. Double entendres aside, this is what makes teaching Language enjoyable..those moments with the keen, eager little buggers who desperately want to learn.

[Hamish]

doctorg said:

I knew you were talking about Hamish, George et al.
Now that lot ARE wankers.

THAT'S IT!

I'm coming for youse.

Put ME in a sentence with George.

Look for a black 1954 Buick four door with six guys in it, all wearing black.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Will they be carrying violin cases?
If so, I'm off to join an all girl band which has Marilyn Monroe as singer. , I'll say to her.

[woza17]

I agree with Burl TBL. I also like my own methodology that is still in the early stages of development. Arguing and making outrageous statements to get a reaction from the students.

If you think Monty Python and the argument room.
Yes it is. No it's not.
Cheers Woza

[hankuh]

So anyway to end a long story, my methodology generally consists of not giving a poo and making everyone happy, because if they aren't happy, I could lose my job, and I don't want that to happen. This conclusion probably makes better sense.

[acjade]

Can we not make them happy and inspire them to communicate at the same time?
Methodology is a word that is too inflexible for the classrooms here. But for what it's worth here's what happens in my classroom.
ME: Good morning little darlings
Students: Good morning teacher
ME: How are you this morning?
A Few Students: So-so. Fine and you?
ME: I'm excited. Very excited.
One Student: Really?
ME: Yes. Because today we're going to play a new game. It's called wake up wanker it's Wednesday. Now stand up and move the desks ... and GO OUTSIDE TO USE YOUR PHONE!
(Students take out mobiles and begin to exit the classroom except for Gao who is talking in Chinese to unidentified caller)
ME: TRAVEL TO HURL THE McKAY TELEPHONE GAO!!!
After regaining order and the students have managed to make a circle we commence the lesson.
We begin with a few pronunciation drills on the 'w' sound and the 'v' sound. Moving right along we revise the 'w' words and sentences we learned last week and then we begin the game. Student 1 has to think of a word beginning with w. Student 2 has to repeat the 'w' word and think of a new one. And so it goes on until a student loses the thread when we all have to call out 'Wake up wanker it's Wednesday!'
Prior to this of course I have taught the meaning of wanker in a vocabulary lesson. The students know that wanker is a 'w' word which means someone who is vocabulary gifted.

The game is concluded at the break during which the boys try to bott my smokes.

Class resumes. A lesson on prepositions and listening skills. Then the class is divided into two teams. I read out a sentence. I repeat the sentence. I repeat the sentence again. Then the teams have to steal either the content words or the structure words and write them on the blackboard. This is repeated about five times. Finally,the student who can reconstruct all the sentences and read them out aloud gets to choose which song we will listen to and sing to conclude class.
Jing jing wins and chooses My Heart Will Go on...and on....and on....and on....

[Wolf]

hankuh said:

Admittedly, and I hope no one takes offense at this, you can talk ESL methodologies all of you want, you can intellectually masturbate over the various methods, but inside the public education system here in China, these kind of methods have to have a rudimentary foundation, a foundation that is NOT based on the Iron Rice Bowl Method, which is essentially what the public education system is here.

The public school systems whether middle or higher education are crowded, and everyone wants their erzi or their nuer to have a piece of the pie, and if that means bribing a teacher, they will do it, and most certainly, that means widespread cheating. Guanxi and houmen determine everything here--not merit, not standards, not ethics, nothing that at least sets a bar for some kind of integrity.

I just try to reach one student who takes an interest and that can make a small difference.

Excuse me, I have to scratch, and if the negativity of this posting offends some or runs against the grain of romantic endeavors, I do apologize. I used to have those ideals about 3 years ago, but something about reality eroded them.

Thought I'd give some thoughts about this one.

I'm an idealist when it comes to foreign language education. I'm also probably certifiable for the same reason, but let's start with what we have.

The CLT Approach basically pre-supposes at least some interest in learning of the target language. In most ESL situations (where most research gets done) this is true. In some (most) EFL situations, paricularily in East Asia it is not.

Therefore, the whole shebang won't work.

CLT, or ANY sort of language learning, will (by and large) not take place in an enviornment described by Mr. Ass.

In Japan, foreign EFL teachers are so systematically alienated and disenfranchised from existing teaching institutions (public and private) that they do not have the ability to take their rightful place in the teaching process.

Also add in the lack of communication. It might sound not nice, but from a methodological point of view keeping information about classes from teachers, and ignoring input from teachers and students is detrimental to the process of EFFECTIVE language teaching. They may as well put little EFL tags on our arms, drive us off to Poland, line us up, and shoot us; as far as our effectiveness in the classroom under such circumstances is concerned.

Another "tactic" is to hide behind "cultural differences." Let it hereby be known that East Asian researchers into language teaching basically agree with a co-operative, communicative approach of some sort. Also, there is no great East Asian Opponent to CLT (unless you count Grammer Translation by default.) Most of it boils down to a reluctance on the part of ruling classes to create beings that can think for themselves (a skill necessary in second langauge usage), and society as a whole having a "we are we, and thus by default graat; and you go sit at the back of the bus" view of the rest of the world. Foreigners and foreign places are lumped into an amprphous blob. What's more, in spite of any and all qualifications, many would rather not allow any foreign national free access to the education system. Instead we get distanced, "subordinate" roles as "Cultural Ambassadors" "Dancing Monkies" etc. These are cultural factors, but I see them as negative cultural factors worthy of termination.

The backwash effect of tests is, as Master Ass describes, crippling to the point of why bother. Tests are obviously to test for something. And I bet nickels to doughnuts that most of those tests Chinese students scramble about do not test communicative ability (written and spoken, "communticative" doesn't mean "English Corner nonsense only"). What these students study for will not help them with the langauge at large. Not to mention the effect on motiviation this has for students. In their world, English (and any other foreign langauage) just becomes a number sheet they have to fill out at test time in order for money to be bestowed upon their bank accounts in the future. You're not going to get a lot of multicultural understanding out of that, unless you count hello hooligans.

And, oh mighty joy of joys, the (English Speaking) academic/research community of at least Japan (excluding, it would seem, only me personally - and I'm just a guy who lives in a frog pond with part of a correspondance MA) has driven their head into the sand on this issue with such fury that I'm surprised that all Foreign University Profs, etc in Japan don't all have nosebleeds. From reading most JALT stuff, etc; you'd never know that East Asia needs a massive top-to-bottom (or, far better yet, bottom to top) rehaul of foreign langauge education. You'd never know that the 20 year old JET programme is just a stopgap measure that, quite obviously, isn't working. You'd never know that the demand for "English" has been inflated by crooked businessmen and governments worried about isolation trends that go along with too much nationalism (describes both Japan and China, amoung others.) Japan has 60 year old house wives "study English" as a way of being near a 20something white man (oh Lord, quasheth my desire to puke. For verily I hath beheld the visage of my grandmother hitting on me.) Parents (usually mothers) ram their kids into "English Lessons" soley because they believe that this will ram money into their kids' future bank accounts. Little care is expended upon other cultures. Indeed, some of the parents I have encountered have left me with little wonder as to why Japan allied with the Nazi party (noticing this is part of why I got fired from my last job.)

But there is hope.

The Japanese government is beginning to grow weary of that "decades of time and billions of yen down the toiliet" level of competancy from the current system. (The Chinese will too, but it'll take longer, I think.) There are quite a few local teachers out there who can be arsed to teach as best they could, if only they had a little thing called "support." For every little Adolph Jr I come accross, there are students willing to try to get past the barriers and communicate.

For, verily, humanity has a light side as well as a dark. And we, for better or for worse, get to ride the crest of that.

I still think, that given enough time, that a decent teaching system will rise phoneix like from the train wreck we've got now. We might not live to see it. But there you go.

[Wolf]

doctorg said:

ps Reflections from forum members on how they achieved a modicum of 2nd language competence might throw some light on the subject. Raoul speaks reasonable bargain basement [abuse a taxi driver, chat up a girl] Chinese, but he shares your despair re: teaching. Hamish, who by his own accounts, is a great classroom practitioner soon to be lost to China, cheerfully confesses to "ting bu dong".

I learned French in school like any good Anglaphone Canadain. Grade 2 to Grade 12 - ten years. By the end of it I was having pretty decent conversations with my francaphone friends and reading Le Petit Prince in the origional Klingon.

I learned Japanese in Japan because I went to a langauge school (as a student) for two and a half years, systematcially used childrens' videos (and later DVDs) for listening practice at home, and learned kanji (hanzi) by rote at my desk (although practiced reading on my own with comic books, kids books, newspapters, etc.)

All it took was an open mind, a structured learning system to get me from one point to the next, a need (or want) to learn, a boatload of effort, and years of time. That, as far as I can figure, is what second langauge learning means. It's like Westly said: "Life is pain, highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something."

In class the language of instruction was Japanese, activities were communicative, and we all tried hard. As in, we'd be asked to do something, and we'd do it. Like in Japanese and stuff.

Once again, though, this was a "JSL" and "FSL" enviorment, rather than "JFL" and "FFL".

What I did in my second and third semester in China (especially with the freshmen classes) was train my students into using communicative activities. Start out simple, realize that it'll look like a disaster for the first couple of months. Persist, provide encouragment and feedback, etc. I taught one class for the whole year, and by the last couple of months I couldn't get some of them to shut up from giving their opinions in class. And this was my third tier Agricultural University in the middle of nowhere, Jaingxi; with students who were literally straight off a medeval farm. But they were nice kids who, I guess, responded well to my training. Will it help them in real life? I can't answer that, but I'd bet you I prepared them for talking to one of them there foreigner people far better than memorizing the OED.

Much ramming of head into concrete wall was required before I thought of that. But I was so happy when the time for that class rolled around each week.

At my current job that's what I would be doing, but I am powerless to impliament any curriculum planning choices. Currently it's mostly audio-lingual, although I try to wedge in as many student centered activities as I can.

[hankuh]

Wolf, no poo, I don't want to sound patronizing or condescending, but my god, your response was damn m'kaying great. Now, that's real writing, and delving into what at least I've experienced in the classroom daily.

Thank YOU!!!!!!!

[Dr. Gonzo]

I second that, T.H. Ass. Good to see the Wolfman back, and firing. Must be all that wasabe.
I'm with him on CLT as an approach.
Grammar/Translation simply doesn't work unless used with individuals at THAT critical moment when they are ready to take a particular item on board.
Teach your most brilliant lesson on continuous verb tenses and see how many of your charges can use them even vaguely correctly the next day. What they'll do is wrongly convert all simple verbs to the "ing" form and then after a week forget them all together.
Use:
Authentic texts and situations.
Get:
Students to lower the monitor and speak.
Teach:
Grammar when the students truly need and want it.
Jettison prepared speeches.........."there are three people in my family,"

Yes, its harder in an EFL situation cf ESL. I know, having done both, but the song remains the same.

Sermon over.

[con's fly is open]

Wolf, what Hairy said (and Gonzo seconded).

I think I finally figured out what CLT means: actual application of English in meanigful conversation. This is easy in my classrooms of 5 to 11 students, in fact it comprises most of my lessons. But in the mills with 30+ students it's easier said than done.

When Woza was here she summed up Crazy English as a method more of teaching cut-and-paste phrases that can be frequently applied to real-life situations. The Modern English drama book has proven this to me: I can tell them "Brad, don't be a jerk!" and they know exactly what I mean.
I'm not proposing to eliminate learning English a word at a time, or grammar construction, but perhaps I could be more aggressive about teaching rote sentences and terms like "so-so" and "nothing much" and "no sweat".

Thoughts?

[Wolf]

This is just a personal opinion, but Crazy English seems just to be the Audiolingual Method delivered with a lot of showmanship and nationalist feeling; at maximum volume.

One previaling attitude towards CLT (at least in Britian; Britian and the US have slightly different takes on this) is that it is a suppliament to the Grammar-ish side of teaching. In fact, how to teach grammar is an important issue. I studied three approaches; grammar as product (the old-fashioned "get it right" approach), grammar as process (the Nunan-esque "use the grammar to solve an immediate problem/get something done" approach), and a third one that was more of a sythesis of the two. I don't have my notes with me right now, and my current papers have forced it from my head. Anyway, there was a researcher in Japan called Greigg, who said that an understanding of a grammar system of a second language involved an imperfect, dynamic set of rules that learners add to as their understanding progresses (eg. In Chinese put "bu" in front of a verb to make it negative; in French boy nouns are "le" and girl nouns are "la," etc.) Being able to use these rules in discourse is, of course, a learned skill.

So. You need some understanding of the grammar system of the target langauge. And you further need practice in using it for communicative purposes. The big trick, then, is to teach both skills in a mutually compliamentary way (ie that one enforces the other) at the same time.

So how do you do THAT?

If I had the One True Answer to that, I wouldn't be living in a frog pond. But here's a big hint; basically most new CLT stuff; in actual classroom application; is the use of classroom activities most of us know and use anyway, but with a specific frame of mind on how to use them towards meeting the goals of the students/course.

Do any of you have access to the "New Interchange" series of books? They're far from perfect, but that gives you an example of what I'm talking about in action. I saw them for sale in Nanchang, so I'd imagine that most major cities would have them.

David Nunan's "task based curriculum" stuff is aslo a good read for that.

For what it's worth; here's how I might introduce the present progressive to my students.

- I'd go into class with a fairly good, if not very good, idea of what they have covered up until know. ie how many new words will be in the lesson; what other stuff they have studied up until now, how well they have been using other previously taught items, etc.

- Do some warm up activity that involves a)language items they already have covered and b)applications/tasks similar to the ones I'll use later in the lesson (if possible)

- Introduce the new idea using the 100 year old method of deductive reasoning + the 35 year old method of TPR. ie pick up a newspaper "I am reading a newspaper." Sit at the classroom computer "I am using the computer." etc etc.

- Give out a handout, or write on the board, or do a powerpoint presentation or whatever on how to make present progressive you put "ing" on the present particaple (leaving out all these long words I'm using now.)

- Have some props on hand that would involve verbs I know the students have learned before. ie computer - use, crossword puzzle - do, newspaper - read. Have volunteer students come up to the class and do the actions. At first I'd call out the sentences (give students time to think about this) then I'd have the students call out a few.

- Do some reading activity, preferably illustarated, preferably related in some way to my students, and preferably suitable to their current ability.

- Try out some activity such as a charades game; have one group of students write out "ing" sentences and have another group act them out, etc.

- I could do some sort of lying game; where one person tells a bald lie and the other responds with "you're putting me on/you're taking the piss/you're poo-ing me/whatever might be appropriate here.)

- Some semi-open ended writing activity. ie "Bob went to the book store. Now (he is reading.)" There are other possible answers, like "He is stealing a book" "He is wanking to a Playboy" "He is buying a magazine" etc. Geared to what I think they can handle if they try. Include one of the "You're having me on" examples.

I guess. In most classrooms I have been in; this stuff would only suceed if a)I was given the autonomy to plan classes (I don't have that now) b)If the students somehow got used to this sort of a learning style (hard work) c) students had some sort of motiviation (a teacher may or may not be sucessful with this; depending.)

That being just the first step. From here on out, I would do my best to ensure that this stuff would be a feature of classroom language/activities, so that they remain exposed to it.

I pulled that out of my bottom, I shall not lie. It's not perfect, and it's open to criticism (after all, that's one way for teachers to grow). But it's based on all the stuff I've been studying for the past few years. The British school of Applied Linguistics is, at least in part, not as ivory tower-ish as one might expect from academia. Most of the people on my required reading list are either teachers themselves, or researchers who work in classrooms/with teachers all the time.

DISCLAIMER: Trying a lesson like that in China (or Japan) can be an invitation to a headache under the realities of most teaching institutes. Students, as the experienced of you know darn well, are just not used to that. Nor are they aware of the inherient value (if any) of CLT. But I'm too stubborn to do my job any way other than that which I feel is best. For what it's worth, the boss who has been the most supportive of that has been my old university in China.

I wonder if any of that is in relation to Con's post ... oh well ... "Post Reply" button beckons.

[Ruth]

Wolf, I don't know if you helped Con any, but you sure helped me. I really enjoy reading your posts regarding teaching methods. There's so much I don't know. Flying by the seat of my pants has been working, and I really do try to help the students learn. If I tried harder and learned more myself, would it help them more? Would I be permitted to use what I know? Over the past few months I've become complacent, by which I mean I've adapted more to the Chinese way. It's easier and the students are more comfortable. Am I doing them a disservice? Probably.

I have much work to do.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Ruth, stuff that Wolf is talking about didn't come to him in a flash of divine inspiration. Like me, he was an honest, caring teacher who realised there must be some method to this madness of 2nd. language acquisition. We both decided to do something about it and enroled in post grad. studies. It's given me an insight to ESL teaching and given me a hunger to know more. I've been very impressed by your teaching posts and threads: now its maybe time to take that extra step.

The other thing is that when/if you go home, you can make a career shift. I find ESL much more satisfying than the mainstream stuff I used to do.

[Ruth]

Dr. G, you are so insightful. I actually had those thoughts earlier when I was typing my previous post. About post grad work, that is. Thanks for the vote of confidence.

I was a uni drop-out and didn't complete my BS until I was 42. I loved being an adult student, although working full time, running a home and being a student was difficult. I thrived on learning. I surely have the time to study in China with my whopping 6 hours a week of teaching time.

Unlike my hubby, who will soon be able to retire and draw a pension, I will probably have another job in the west 'after China'. Or not. Maybe I'll just stay here until I die. But knowing more about what I am trying to do can only make me better at it, right? I thought I should focus on learning the language rather than jumping into an MA, but I have been very complacent about that, so maybe something else is in order.

So, now that you've nudged me, any suggestions on how to go about gathering information on correspondence programs? And I'm not rich and my Chinese salary is peanuts once it's converted.

[acjade]

Get a great masters in hand for a [glow=red,2,300][/glow]CORPORATION who's looking for a [glow=red,2,300]JOINTPARTNERSHIP [/glow]here Ruth. Be a good little captililst and yet remember your honour. The Goddess will help you. The Chinese children are not oil. They are related to the DNA of MY flesh and blood and if you try and suck out one more second of their precious gift of childhood for the idol, $, I will find one of those things that one of the boys is constantly waving about and ....
So sorry. Get carried away. Love the kiddies. You see it began when I was still a child in a provincial town in Ballarat Victoria where a small but evil group of women thought it would be a good idea to prey on the local breeders and make some money at the same time....

[Dr. Gonzo]

Ruth, many reputable institutions will offer distance education in post grad. TESOL. I checked to see what I'd need to practice ESL in my own country's system, and found the certificate course was the answer. It's one semester full time, which I spread over three. I got an Aussie govt. education loan, which I've since repaid.
Having said all that, there are private ESL colleges here who only ask for a degree and relevant experience, so check out the situation in your home country.
Wolf is a Canuck so he may be able to help.
good luck.

[Ruth]

Thanks, Dr. G. Part of my problem is deciding which country is my home country. Not sure where I'll land when China is finished with me. But I'll check out Canada. I seem to be heading back to my roots. I definitely want what I do to be of use outside of China as well, if I'm spending bunches of money on educating myself.

Be a good little captililst and yet remember your honour. The Chinese children are not oil. They are related to the DNA of MY flesh and blood and if you try and suck out one more second of their precious gift of childhood for the idol, $,

I have no idea what you are talking about, Jade. I was discussing furthering my education (which will cost buckets of money I don't really have) in order to be more effective at what I am in China to do. Maybe I am being very altruistic, but I came to China with the intention of helping, in my own small way.

[con's fly is open]

Ruth, I have quite a few friends back home with more experience than I have... and bachelor's degrees... who are all going to work for Bow Valley College in Calgary, as ESL instructors.
Starting wage: $45 an hour! And I'll bet anything there are equivalent gigs around the country. No shortage of immigrants with English deficits.

Look into online degrees- they're not as expensive as you might think. And it's possible you could negotiate to get some credits for old stuff you've done before. The letters after your name are expensive- I doubt I'll ever bother to collect any- but they pay for themselves back home.

[Ruth]

connell said:

they pay for themselves back home.

That and knowledge for knowledge's sake. But $45/hour is nothing to sneeze at.

[con's fly is open]

Natch, Ruth. I just tend to see things from the poverty side, is all. Hence the constant money angle.

I did my TEFL cert online, and it worked for me. I did an English course by correspondence, and prefer it to classroom. I hate watching lectures- doesn't suit my attention skills, which seem to work either in conversation or in print, but not as passive listener.

Your results, of course, may vary.

[Wolf]

Ruth, I don't have any details off the top of my head, but there are EFL certificate courses, correspondance courses, organizations, etc out there that you can join if interested. In Zuhai (the SAR next to Macau) there is one institute or antother that offers CELTA certficate courses in the summer, so I hear.

If you think you're going to be a teacher for a while, then learn a bit at a time as you go. I've been an EFL teacher creeping on to 6 years now, and I'm only 28, so I bought the farm and just went for the MA. I'm two years in; that stuff I wrote is the result of much reading and experience.

Look into it and do what's best for you.

$45 an hour back home? Dang ... if I can't find anything decent in Japan after I graduate next year maybe there is still hope after all... .

[woza17]

Jade darling with all due respect, I have no idea what you are talking about either but I would really like to know, could you elaborate please sweetie

[Ruth]

Wolf and Con, Thanks again for the advice. I took a TEFL certificate course online two years ago before coming to China. It was the cheapest easiest way to go at the time to get the needed piece of paper. Good enough, but I'm ready for more. Definitely motivated, but not sure I have what it takes to do it by correspondence. I'm a procrastinator by nature. I need deadlines to function well.

[acjade]

;D

I have no idea what you are talking about, Jade. I was discussing furthering my education (which will cost buckets of money I don't really have) in order to be more effective at what I am in China to do. Maybe I am being very altruistic, but I came to China with the intention of helping, in my own small way.[/quote]

Sorry... wasn't very clear.
When my eldest son did his PHD he was sponsored by a corporation who had a vested interest in his field.
I'm sure the same applies in the ESL industry.

I know you're here to help but there's a lot of people who are in the education business here who are just in it for the money. That's a good thing too and I don't see why the two can't get along together. But I've experienced the foreign partner/ joint enterprise thingy here and they couldn't give a rat's arse about the students and in my experience when these guys don't care about the students they couldn't give a hoot about the teachers.
Still, I'm trying to change my thoughts here and be positive. China is still unexplored to many educational instituions from the west, including those wanting partnerships with the mushrooming private unis. There's got a be a PHD or masters topic there somewhere. I will think this out more clearly for you and run it by you again in a few days. I'm not feeling the best at the moment and besides I have to dig through some files to get some concrete examples for you.