questions not about tattoos and beers

[ramsey314]

well my last thread pretty answered all of the drinking tattooed music questions for me. i might ask some stupid stuff here but i really dont have all that much of an idea what to expect and am in desperate need of some serious advice/opinions.
1) we are planning on going to china after my girlfriend graduates college in mid july. is there a certain time we should be there before? from what i understand most publc schools want new teachers there before september 1.
2) better to teach for public or private as a new teacher?
3)while it may not be necessary, has anyone found it beneficial to have a tefl/celta/tesol license? effective as for learning how to teach? waste of money? better to get it in china and look for jobs after? better to get it online before we go?
4) how important is it that we learn SOME chinese before we go? and again, best ways to do that (tutoring, cds, internet, etc)?

ok that should at least get us started. thanks for whatever advice you all can offer

[Nate M]

I moved this here as it seems to fit in better. I'm a little too busy to answer quite at this moment but I'm pretty sure a few other people will be able to chime in with their own two cents.

[Raoul Duke]

Hey ramsey!

As a wise man here said recently, "There are no stupid questions here, only stupid Australians." You should let the wisdom of these words guide you during your journey with us.

1) The vast majority of schools have terms starting somewhere between mid-August and mid September. You definitely want to be here before then. The recruiting for that Fall term will start soon and reach a peak in June and July. If you're not already, start watching the netwaves soon. There are bunch of job links on our Links page...bear in mind that a lot of the general and local China sites will also have job listings.

2) Up to you. IN VERY GENERAL, private will pay better and will let you teach adults, but will also have a heavier schedule and be more prone to being crooked. Public pays squat and is exclusively children (NOTE: Chinese university students are children. Pre-schoolers with hot asses.), but tends to offer shorter hours and has at least some glimmer of hope of not being too dodgy. There are lots and lots and lots of exceptions to these generalizations, of course.
Best bet might be to simply see where the best opportunities that come your way come from.

3) Certs might opena few more doors but aren't really necessary. Before investing in something inconvenient and expensive like a CELTA, might want to kick the tires a bit first. Something like that is only worth it if you're planning to do this work for a while...as in some years.
If you have a bachelor's degree and a steady set of 'nads, you have all the qualifications you need to find something to start with.

My only exception here: if you honestly feel you have no idea how to teach anything and will be completely at sea in a classroom, consider getting some live, real-time, hands-on teacher training. This is for YOU, not to impress an employer.

4) A little Chinese to start with is not vital but nice....greetings, thanks, a few basics won't hurt a bit. If you can't find a teacher, get a basic phrasebook that comes with audio exercises. Keep it basic...Chinese is tough and takes more time than you have now. Aim for social lubrication. Once you get here, you can embark upon more serious instruction in Chinese.

[Non-Dave]

I think Raoul's advice is pretty good, but then I am a Stupid Australian... go figure!

2 fens worth on learning Chinese: Maybe something like Pimsleurs Mandarin Chinese might be a good starting point. It's an audio course on spoken Chinese. Starts off nice and basic and I've found it helps a bit. I've heard it is available for download on torrent sites (aka free) otherwise a fairly expensive purchase.

[Newbs]

I am a Stupid Australian

Yes, but you're from Queensland.

Re the learning of Chinese. If you play your cards right Ramsey you will end up with a workload way less the 40 hours a week. That being the case you might want to look around for some Chinese courses at the local uni, or get in touch with the local expat community and see if they have anything to offer. This is not for everyone, but it's something you may want to consider.

If you are working 40+ hours a week you're being diddled.

[Decurso]

Good advice all.I recomend some TEFL certification.It gives you an idea of what to expect and will make your fist "real class" a lot less nerve racking.It also looks good on your resumeNo need to go for the pricey ones..check out what your local colleges and unis offer.

Another big difference in public schools and private schools is that in a public school you will almost certainly be teaching in one place all the time.Private schools may send you all over the place and your schedule could vary greatly from week to week.In a larger city this mean a LOT of commuting.Something to ask about if you wind up talking to private schools.

As for Chinese...try to learn numbers at least.It makes life easier.

[Raoul Duke]

Yes!

Local colleges are a great place to look for some teacher training. You'll get some hands-on training from a real teacher. An online-only cert might help bamboozle a school owner, but won't help you much when you walk into that classroom.

And numbers are indeed a wonderful thing to know in Chinese!

[Miss Motz]

Mr Rauooooool, now you just watch who you call stupis australians!!!! I'll have you know we're smart lot of homo sapiens!!! and if you give me a few hours (when the malibu and pinapple juice and the Toohey's new has worn off I'll be able to give you some damn good reasons as to why we're smarter than the average bear!........ the reasons are a little blury at the moment

[con's fly is open]

Ramsey, I replied on your thread in the China room. I'm too lazy to cut and paste.

[Raoul Duke]

Not to mention too goofy to read what's already there.

Miss Motz, you just stay blurry, baby. Talk to me.

[con's fly is open]

What Decurso said about numbers.

I came to China without ANY cert, or classroom experience, and had to learn how to teach as I went. Smileys fail me here: avoid my horrible mistake!. I don't know how much classroom experince YOU have- whether to take a course hinges heavily on this.

Ya know, for such an outwardly cocky people, Hogans seem awful quick to assume the "stupid" part refers to them in particular. I defer to their judgment, though...

[acjade]

Teaching in China is different to teaching at home.

After my experience here and over twenty years as a chalkie back home I think it should be mandatory that all trainee teachers from the land of footie and meat pies (and bloody camels is it now) ought to spend six months in a Chinese classroom learning what can go wrong with inadeqately trained teachers.

No I don't. ( I don't wanna lose my salary. STOOPID!!)

[Lotus Eater]

Quote:
I am a Stupid Australian
Yes, but you're from Queensland.

Thank you NEWBS - finally admitted that Q'lders make the Smart State smart.

Teaching here is both easier and harder. Easier in that generally you have very few discipline problems. Confucian principles still reign. Harder in that all of the wonderful stuff they teach you about interactive communicative classrooms are NOT traditonally seen in the Chinese education system. It is hard work to get students to offer answers or opinions in front of their classmates, hard work to really have them analyse and tear apart ideas and stuff from the text books.

Doing a course will give you some idea of 'what' and maybe some 'how' to teach - but be prepared to toss a fair bit of it out when faced with a class of students who don't want to be seen to be making mistakes.

Public vs private institutions: Dodgy question- they are made for different things. The language mills are just that - so the adult studetns may be more motivated to learn. Younger ones are likely to be sent there because their parents want them to learn English - the motivation might not be high.

The universities: The education system is not the same as at home. Private universities here are established as money making ventures and in general do not attract the best students. Government run universities will be allotted the best students and even within those universities there are 'key' universities that get the cream of the crop.

Students choices are limited and you will come across English majors who didn't want to study English - they wanted to be scientists etc. So motivation levels will vary.

Money is not to be found in the government run institutions!! But you generally have fewer hours to teach, less administration interference and not the same level of sudden changes.

Please note - I used the qualifier generally frequently - if you read Bubbas review of Huaibei you will see that there are some major problems floating around as well.

[Decurso]

Basically..it depends on the school.There is no easy answer to "Which is better".Ask a lot of annoying questions and go with the school who doesn't treat them like annoying questions.

[con's fly is open]

What Decorso said. Shortlist any that say NO to something: they're not just telling you what they think you want to hear.

[Stil]

For a first timer I'd say a public school is a safer bet. It is also usually quite easy to pick up privates to supplement your income. While the government schools pay less, they give you far more free time and you generally won't have to spend time advertising for the school.

I'm not Australian but i find the term 'stupid Australian' to be quite offensive. We are teaching English and should stop using oxymorons.

[Mr Nobody]

Who are you calling an oxymoron?

[Stil]

Favourite oxymoron for the Chinese - Foreign Expert - This one cracks them up everytime.

[Ruth]

I didn't know it cracked them up. But it should. I get to be an expert just because I'm foreign and can speak English. Life here is sweet.

[Non-Dave]

I'm an expert too, Ruth. "X" being an unknown quantity and "spurt" a drip under pressure. Helps me keep my perspective...

(I'm sure you are all proper experts, however, especially you fellow Aussies - everyone knows we know everything).

[OZgronk]

For a newbie it is hard to decide upon which arena to perform in, private or Government, so whilst I have had limited exposure to a private school (1 term for 1 day a week) I have enough middle school experience now to give an interesting insight.

In our city there are 4 senior middle schools (where the last three years of high school education happens).

Under the Chinese reasoning system, those in their final year (Gr3) are not to be exposed to foreign teachers, so only Gr1 and Gr2 are taught Oral English in these schools.

Now the four schools here (like most schools in China)are rated by the Government based upon (amongst other things) the grades that the kids achieve. So the better results a school gets means more money from the Education machine.

So each city or district will have a key school which along with its greater share of moolah, also get first pick of its students from the junior schools. So these schools, one would imagine, would be better to teach at because by rights, the kids should be smarter and the facilities better.

Well let me tell you before you demand to be sent to a key school, that there is more to a school than how fancy its fountain or how tall its Mao statue is.

I spent my first term here at a key school and I thought it was just normal to be treated like dirt and to have kids who were impossible to teach.

My next two terms have been at a 3rd tier school, which not only gets minimal funding but also is left to teach those kids the higher level schools don't want.

And what a delightful thing that is.

Firstly the Principal has to decide long and hard on what he will spend his meagre ration on and let me tell you he doesn't waste it on yet another statue of Mao, yet another fish pond or a huge gateway. He spends it on decent accommodation for the kids, on decent classrooms and nice landscaping.

The students here are almost all the kids of peasants and it is sad to realise that very many of them will go back to their parents farm to make a living tromping around in mud.

But these kids are happy. Happy because whilst at school they have a clean bed, running water and an ensuite (shared with 9 others but hey this is China).

They have friends around and the only sad time is at holiday time as they have no choice but to go home to help Grandpa plant the rice because mum and dad now live two thousand km away trying to earn some money building a road so as to be able to send their kid to school.

As well as being happy, they are extremely well behaved, because they know that this will be their one and only exposure to a real foreigner and they hang on our every word, and whilst they are as shy as any in China they will have a bash if asked.

The teachers here treat us like family. We are taken out to dinner regularly and the retired teachers always are friendly towards us.

The school cant do enough for us, we are costing them a bomb but they are grateful as we have helped the school improve its grades and they have asked our agents to send another two "just like us" when we leave in July.

We are payed not just on time but a week in advance each month and we are left alone when we are at home....never any calls or door knocks.

We have a brand new Lenovo PC each with 17" flat screens and colour printers and a huge TV set...its fantastic.

Now let me compare our lot with that being experienced by the FTs at the Key School on the other side of the river (and in the smart part of town).

Firstly the school treats them with utter indifference. When they arrived in February they weren't given a tour of town to be shown where to shop, bank or post.

They have yet to be taken out to dinner by the school, and the school certainly hasn't returned the courtesy of taking us out to dinner when our school has invited their FTs to many dinners put on by our school.

The school wont employ a third teacher so the two there do the work of three. They were given some old PCs with an even older laser printer, and they have to pay for their phone.

The Students are rude and indifferent to their Oral English classes and treat the FTs in the same manner as the school as a whole treat them.

(we found this type of treatment at our last school ...a key school).

A friend who has also been over here for three terms in Nanning, says her experience has been exactly the same and she too only lasted one term at the key school before she left for greener pastures.

Before we came to our present school, we turned down the opportunity to teach at the key school in Guilin; at our interview we immediately saw what was happening and we couldn't get out of there fast enough. That was a shame as the city is really what we wanted but we weren't going to put up with the key school crap.

And here's the rub: at all three key schools I mention, the pay is less and the hours are longer than here.

So to any newbie reading this, just be aware that the ritzy school may not be as good as the little poor school down the (dirt) road.

I said there are 4 senior middle schools here. The fourth one is just for government and party member's kids. They have no foreign teachers, but they just installed a 1.4 million Yuan gateway...now wouldn't you just love to work there!

[Ruth]

Well written Ozgronk. I don't see a clapping hands smiley so this will have to do.

My husband and I are at the #2 senior middle school in town. Just as you described as far as oral English for grade 3 students. That section of the uni entrance exams was eliminated so, no need for those kids to have oral English classes. We are well treated by our co-workers and the admin. Some students are great, others shouldn't be in our classes as they are wasting their parents' money.

I'd like to add that another way for a student to get into the #1 school is to have rich parents willing to pay for the privilege (that's if your marks aren't high enough to get in otherwise). We also live in a rural community and the kids are deeply appreciative of the sacrifice their parents are making for them to be here.

Right now our school is applying to become a 'model' school, whatever that is. Our white faces are helping. The #1 school doesn't have foreign teachers. We've been given some concessions, like beginning lunchtime English corners after a two year hiatus, all in the name of looking good when the inspectors come. I'm cynically waiting to see how long it lasts after the inspectors have come and gone.

[OZgronk]

Thanks Ruth, yes I forgot to mention the fee paying way of getting into a key school.

Our deputy Headmaster came over last night to show us the stats on how our 21 Gr3 English Majors' marks across all subjects have risen since we started here. (he has been trying to get the "leaders" to allow us to teach all the Gr3s as he can see that would improve their marks which in turn would improve their funding...the leaders of course wont have a bar of this)!

He pointed out to us that parents now want their kids to come here, but he is going to limit numbers as he knows what will happen if he opens the flood gates.

He also told us he was offered the position of Principal at the Key School, but turned it down as he too prefers the nicer life here.

Interesting how it all works.

[Raoul Duke]

Excellent as usual, Gronk (and Ruth too).

Confirms my impression that if one can stand a smaller salary, the programs at all levels for the rich kids are to be avoided at all costs. The lower-tier publics and the obscure unis are really where it's at.

[Raoul Duke]

For those of you who are newer with us, this blast from the past- in our Library- might be of interest.

chinateachers.proboards17.com/index.cgi?board=library&action=display&thread=1092569145&page=1