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Post by icebear on Aug 17, 2006 4:34:36 GMT 7
I know nothing about it but am curious. What can you folks tell me about its uses, availability and worthiness in and around China?
I was thinking of it since I've had this m'kaying wicked knot in my neck for a day or two, spending toooooo much time writing this damned report!
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Post by Raoul Duke on Aug 17, 2006 5:09:27 GMT 7
Acupuncture does seem to work...many applications stand up even in Western research studies, although they have absolutely no idea HOW it works. It tends to be a slow, long-term treatment...the idea seems to be a restoration of balance within the body. Be prepared for a long regimen of frequent visits. It also has some acute uses such as anesthesia. Some surgeries in China are done with acupuncture as the only anesthetic! (It's unlikely that a foreigner will be subjected to this...) It's available pretty much everywhere in China. All towns of any size will have a Chinese medicine hospital that can do it, and there are generally numerous private clinics as well. If you want to try it, I recommend asking around among the locals to find a doctor or clinic. It seems to be better to find an older, more traditional doctor for this...there are some fly-by nighters out there. If you can believe that in China. I also recommend that you buy your own needles. They aren't too expensive. Ask the doctor how many you will need and other details; you can buy them in most larger pharmacies. Sterilization between patients is often poor to none. You'll need good translation help for all this... most traditional docs, especially older ones, don't speak English. And a lot of pharmacy clerks surprise me that they even found the building again that morning.
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Post by Mr Nobody on Aug 17, 2006 7:33:50 GMT 7
I disagree quite strongly, Raoul.
Reseach has shown just the opposite - no relationship between fixing stuff and acupuncture except in a small number of cases, as mentioned below. It doesn't stand up at all, especially the relationship between disease and cure. Randomly applied needles had identical effect to those in the correct places in a bunch of studies. I don't have the references here in China but I can probably find them. New Scientist showed reports also, just recently, where the acupuncture surgery is done under local - the organs don't have too many nerves anyway, the psychological trauma is the issue. Same for hypnotic surgery.
The one exception is that the electric stimulation ones work for muscular issues especially cramping and muscular spasm types by tiring the muscle, which allows it to heal.
Don't forget that double blind studies show that anything works about 30% of the time. I got cancer curing smarties here - 30% cure guaranteed. Mr Placebo's Magic Pills.
However, so far at least it appears harmless unless you fail to heal on your own and fail to go elswhere to get the condition treated.
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Post by Missi on Aug 17, 2006 7:40:18 GMT 7
I don't know. I was walking.... wait let me find that post on my blog and I will post it all, from what happened to the result just give em a few minutes.....
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Post by Missi on Aug 17, 2006 7:51:03 GMT 7
National Holiday in China is like our July 1 in Canada or like July 4 in United States. Only, with more people in the country, China's National Holiday is just bigger. I had some plans to do some minor traveling and site seeing. Well I finished work on the Thrusday at 11:40 for the holiday and was walking home. When I saw something that distracted me. Well, I wasn't looking where I was going and since I should have already learned my lessons, and I didn't, I fell and twisted my ankle. Man it hurt. I have 5 days off, and I couldn't walk. My biggest problem is whenever I hurt myself I don't bother taking the time to heal. And since I have had many problems with this ankle in the past, I decided I am going to do this right. I layed flat on my back for four days straight. I did some exercises and some water treatment, but still hurt really bad to put pressure on it. So, my beautiful foot was up in the air, proped up by most of my blakets, and as long as it was not moving, I was fine. At least I had "Lost", "Desperate Housewives" and "Nip/Tuck" to occupy some time. And I had to start planning the Grade Two english Competition. So I had things to do. After the holiday, I still couldnt' walk for more then 5yards before wanting to put my foot up for throbbing pains. Walking to work? that was interesting. Had to leave twenty minutes early, so I could stop (at least the people on the way to work were nice!) and take a break. I ended up having breafast with my flower shop firends for a while. The school said I should have taken time off of work, and I pooh- pahhed them. I was otherwise fine, execpt the massive purple and green bruise on my ankle. Thank god I was wearing sneakers. It was a great time to talk about hurts and stuff, the teachers learned some new words and not all of them proper. My friend Sienna came over on Wednesday night, and she convinced me to go to her husbands grandfathers shop to have him look at it. Grandfather is a traditional Chinese doctor. I was very nervous as I had acupunture on my back in the past, and it was fine. Couldn't see it, but it was fine. Have had the flamming cups lots of times and I rather enjoy those, you feel sortof clean afterwards. Its hard to explain. But two years ago I went in for treatments on he same ankle to a hospital, and they brought out this massive acupuncture needle that was just so huge- that if you held it up against the ink part of a pen, it would be about the same width. I was thinking OH MY GOD! what I have got myself into! this needle was six inches long and they wanted to put it in my foot! In it goes. One inch, two inches and I am getting scared as it really hurt. Three inches..... four inches. It hit something that made my leg shake, and I jsut started screaming take it out take it out! my firend was there, and she was laughing as this is the first time she has ever seen me nervous and so scared. I am not comfortable with foreign objects in my body. Especially needles. They..... I dunno, but most people are the same way. I can stand getting a shot, as long as I know what it is. Well that is only the beginning. So I go to Grandpa's clinic. I get my own room, Michael and Sienna are with me to keep me company. I still can not walk. My ankle is purple and green and black. Its always a wonder how colourful the human bosy can get. They attempt to pull my foot this way and that, and I had to laugh as they were amazed at the style and the extent of my tattoo's and my toe nails and how my feet smelled of peppermint. Even though I was in pain, Chinese people never cease to amaze me. So I am laying on this bed that is very soft and uncomfortable. And in they come. The needles for the acupuncture. My heart is racing, well pounding for lack of better words. I wonder if they are clean? The nurse iodines (is that right? iodine?) my foot and the needles, I request they do this many times to make me happy. Well really it was a stall tactic that only stalled them for maybe a minute or less. She pushes her index finger into my swollen ankle above the joint and I feel my leg start to spasm, then in goes the needle. TWIST! Then that dreaded finger pushes into the sole of the foot, in plunges the needle. Spasm, TWIST! and in go more. Six in total the first time, five the next treatment. In they stay for 40 minutes. After about 20 seconds you don't even feel them. My foot turned blue after 10 minutes, I was cold, but you really can't have acupuncture and have a blanket on your foot at the same time. After 20 minutes pass, in comes the horrible nurse to twist the needles. You know that action everyone does when taking a cotton bud to clean your ears? that twist everyone does? This is what she did. Again, leg spasms. It could've have been just a reflex I don't know, but she said she'e never seen someone who's leg does that. I couldn't wait for her to see my spasing toes. Now that's a stight. So now the needles come out. You think its bad going in? nope. It worse when they come out. Then, she comes in with a big needles and says don't look. I MEAN WHAT IS IT WITH PEOPLE? you say don't look? of COURSE you are going to look! Its jsut nature to be curious! She had someone sit on my leg so I wouldn't move and she is straddling my foot. She used this big needle to poke holes in my foot. My ankle? was used a friggen pin coushin. How nice. All the other things they did to me so far? nothing in comparasin. She pokes me with this needle, and then put flaming cups on my ankle to suck out the blood. It sounds bad, but makes perfect sense in a way. I read that swelling is an increase in blood to a certain location of your body. So with this extra increa, it limits motion. You remove the increased pressure and voila! you have motion restored. I did not know what she was doing to begin with. I just thought she didn't like me. So after about 5 or so minutes the cups are rormoved, and the swelling is almost gone. THe blood is cleaned up, and everything cleaned. I admire my nice ankle again, it looks much better now. Only it doesn't smell as nice as they applied Chinese traditional medicine on my ankle to aide in healing. traditional medicine? SMELLS BAD! I get my sock on, my shoe and tie up my laces. It hurt for a moment to stand, but then I was fine. I was able to walk and there was no pain! I was excited! I was warned that, I was on limited walking, and take it easy on stairs. I found going up to be very easy, but going down was harder. Just because they reduced the swelling doesn't mean that my ankle was healed. For four more days I went back to get better. No longer was I the human pin coushion act for all the Chinese people to laugh at, but I grinned and beard the acupuncture, till the fourth day, when it hurt so different then it did the day before. I demanded they removed the needles. They said that acupuncture when you don't need it is reversed. It causes pain and not removes it. They said that my muscles were still weak from being sore, but otherwise I am well on the way to recovery. And that next time? The next time I hurt myself in my oh so clumsy way, just go straight to them and they will make me better in no time. The next time? ?? I need to figure out how to post pictures.........
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Post by Lotus Eater on Aug 17, 2006 16:24:45 GMT 7
I did my shoulder and neck in to the extent that I had to completely turn to look at people and had to be helped in and out of cars (couldn't drive - couldn't turn head or use right arm) as I couldn't move easily if it meant anything to do with the shoulder and neck. Pain killers, heat packs, massage etc - no good. Went to Chinese acupuncturist (in Brisbane) he tossed needles into me - couldn't see them as I was lying on my stomach. Lay there for 20-30 minutes. Drove my daughter home and went to work - no further problems.
I also have a western doctor friend who uses acupuncture for childbirth. He's really impressed by the results.
If it works - who cares why or whether it is supposed to or not?
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Post by Mr Nobody on Aug 17, 2006 18:46:06 GMT 7
Me. You should too.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Aug 17, 2006 21:26:27 GMT 7
Yeah, this is definitely a controversial topic...
Mr. N, I don't have time for a deep research but I went to the Yahoo search engine and entered "acupuncture effectiveness clinical". I found a LOT of stuff this way...including a lot of credible Western sources indicating some positive research results. Even the US NIH, a pretty credible authority for medical stuff, characterized the research results as "ambivalent" due to intrinsic methodology challenges, but indicated that acupuncture shows promise in a number of different treatments and therapies. If you're interested in this, I recommend trying the search and judging for yourselves.
I certainly don't want to indicate a blanket approval for all acupuncture...not even their most avid Western supporters would do that. I definitely would never suggest using acupuncture (or any other Chinese medicine procedure) to the exclusion of more conventional Western methods. But I do think that there's some evidence that, for some conditions and purposes, acupuncture can help.
Missi, I don't know what your friend was treating or who they were seeing. When they start bringing out needles that big or talk about inserting any needle that deeply, I start collecting my clothes and leaving. This is way too weird for me and I don't think it's a common or typical acupuncture practice.
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Post by Mr Nobody on Aug 17, 2006 21:36:38 GMT 7
OK, but I stand by the double blind stuff I read. It was pretty meticulous and conclusive.
I do/did research a lot of it because of the meridian connection to kung fu/dim mak/meridians/death touch/ninja magic and all that bullpoo - which I really know is really bullpoo through some serious research - so I am more than convinced that the other side must logically be bullpoo too, from only quite a lot of research. Plus also because my big pet hate of all time is bogus medicine - western, eastern, traditional, new age, modern, funky, clever, commercial, secret whatever. People shouldn't die for stupid crap if possible. Whatever the source. Western or Eastern, or whatever. Plus, all medical stuff should be tested the same. I mean, too much Western bullpoo gets through with the rigorous testing they have, so why should other methods get LESS testing? If it works, it works. So far, by the testing to date, it doesn't work outside of certain areas. Hell, Chinese medical practicioners keep records for hundreds of years. No wonder some works. Better than some western stuff. But without double blind tests and serious statistical testing of sample groups more than the average classroom, I call "bias".
Some people on the forum may have noticed this minor part of my personality.
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Post by icebear on Aug 18, 2006 1:01:13 GMT 7
Missi that sounds pretty wild. I've had plenty of ankle issues over the last 10 years and something reducing the swelling of a legitimate sprain in a day sounds insane! Of course the ligaments and muscles still need to heal and be treated carefully for a few weeks, but that swelling is a big part of the inconvenience and pain. Trying to wear an ankle brace, around a swollen ankle, and in a shoe? m'kaying horrible!
I've been told by several sports medicine majors that swelling accounts for the biggest 'variables' in how long it takes to heal. Reduce swelling instantly via RICE and you might be healed and able in 2 weeks. Forgo compression and it could be 2 months! Definitely true in my various experiences.
Oh, I switched to a new pillow and the neck feels much better. It seems obvious that what we sleep on is a major contributor to posture issues, but its so counterintuitive that something comfortable might be bad posture wise and vise versa. Those posture supporting pillows are awful!
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Post by con's fly is open on Aug 19, 2006 7:32:28 GMT 7
My mother had feeling returned to the right side of her body via acupuncture; she needs it done once or twice a year to touch it up. This makes sense to me: our nervous system is essentially one big electrical circuit, and a tiny needle planting a tiny sensation at just the right spot might stimulate the pathways.
But how acupuncture could help you quit smoking is totally beyond me.
Just asked my dad about acupuncture: says he's referred patients to it simply because he had nothing else to offer them and figured they'd trigger the placebo benefit. He hates the word "placebo" as derogatory, incidentally- thinks it should be called "faith-based therapy" or some such.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Aug 19, 2006 8:03:56 GMT 7
Possibly it goes back to the 'hope' thing we are talking about on the dying thread. Maybe the alternative stuff allows our minds to kick start our own regenerative processes.
But immediate pain relief and the ability to drive, turn and move freely aren't illusions.
I am a simple end-user (and you can play with that all you like!!). I don't need to know the program codes to use my computer, I just want it to work. Same with a lot of other things, including western or eastern medicine. What I do want to know is - will this program do what I want it to do, will it stuff up any other programs I have on my computer? In the same vein, I want to make relatively informed choices about any treatment I undertake.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Aug 23, 2006 1:12:34 GMT 7
If you take too many treatments in the same vein you're likely to end up with a nasty bruise.
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Post by DollyODear on Aug 24, 2006 5:47:42 GMT 7
Had good results with acupuncture here for my problems. Also really really good results with the companion treatment MOXIBUSTION -- which consisted in their burning tiny rice-sized bits of wormwood on precise points on pressure points (mine were on my big toes) to the point just before it burned me. Really. And it worked. Nearly miraculous. Nothing anybody else tried to do helped at all.
Try finding a school in your area. They tend to be 'to the letter' and not off on wild tangents. Google "acupuncture schools" in your province -- see what happens.
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