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Post by Enigma on Sept 27, 2006 7:41:40 GMT 7
Does anyone know what the differences between an expert certificate and a Z type working visa? I am aware of all the ins and outs of a working visa but how does it compare to an expert certificate? Is it completely legal to work as a teacher on an expert certificate, do you need to go for a medical to have one issued, do you need to fly to Hong Kong at all, are you able to renew the expert certificate after one year, how many entries into China can you get on an expert certificate, are there any hidden gremlins one should be aware of if going for the expert certificate etc, etc, etc… Any information would be greatly appreciated.  |
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Post by Dragonsaver on Sept 27, 2006 7:50:58 GMT 7
I thought you had to have the Z visa in order to get the Expert Certificate. I have both.
I understand from some people that now you can have both in your passport. I just have the red book plus the Z visa.
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Ruth
SuperDuperMegaBarfly 
God's provisions are strategically placed along the path of your obedience.
Posts: 3,915
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Post by Ruth on Sept 27, 2006 7:55:36 GMT 7
I could be misunderstanding the terms here and will defer to others wiser, but here's my take on it...
My Z visa got me my Foreign Experts Certificate. My school sent me a letter of introduction. With this letter I obtained a Z visa from the Chinese consulate in my home country. When I arrived in China my school gave me a nifty little book that says I'm a foreign expert. Surely the school worked this out at whatever government level necessary, but I wasn't part of that process.
I don't believe it is a question of either/or. I believe one gets you the other.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Sept 27, 2006 8:23:31 GMT 7
The expert certificate entitles you to change your hard-earned Chinese money into money from your homeland. Not used for much else. Supposed to get you discounts on tickets but I haven't seen that happen yet! Not all foreign teachers get an expert certificate - that is up to your place of work. I have managed once to get onto a plane using my experts certificate - but definitley not other times, they wanted Green book/Residency/passport ID.
Z-visa gets your Residency - which means you are allowed to live here and work at your stated place of work.
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Eagle's Nest
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Post by Eagle's Nest on Sept 27, 2006 11:55:23 GMT 7
LE, a quick question ... Does one need to get a green book or does the Z visa in the passport serve the same purpose?
ealge
PS I have my expert certificate (red book) and passport only.
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Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 27, 2006 12:57:33 GMT 7
Well, now, the residency permit is in the passport, is my understanding. I have so many bits of paper I haven't got a clue, really.
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Post by Enigma on Sept 27, 2006 13:19:08 GMT 7
I’m confused  – yes, I am blonde so no smart comments from the peanut gallery, please.  Some people say I can work legally only on an expert certificate and will be able to come in and out of China as I please and some people say I can’t.  My school says they can get me an expert certificate valid for one year but not a Z visa – so in other words, I will only have an expert certificate and my passport. I am going home in December and don’t want to find myself on a flight back home again if I try and get back into China on the expert certificate upon my return in January.  More concrete advice would REALLY be appreciated.  |
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Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 27, 2006 13:34:54 GMT 7
Um, no, you need the visa thing or residency thing to go in and out of China, that's a definite.
Working, you should get the permit and/or residency and the FE certificate through or from your employer. The residency permit and/or visa IS in your passport. A big green sticker with dates and numbers and stuff.
z visa - did they say residency permit instead? THis seems to be replacing the z in many places. Shoot me down someone if I have that wrong.
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Post by Stil on Sept 27, 2006 14:45:30 GMT 7
As Ruth says 'Z' Visa allows you to get a Residence Permit for working. Once you have the Residence Permit that is all you need and the 'Z' can expire. I haven't had a 'Z' visa for years but have renewed my Residence Permit. The residence permit is multiple entry into China and this is really the only thing you have to worry about in being legal.There is some confusion because the Residence Permit used to be in a separate green booklet, but now it's a stamp in your passport. I prefered the separate green book as I didn't have to carry around my passport all the time when travelling in country.
The Foreign Experts Certificate is a separate red booklet and is completely useless. It is used for converting RMB into foreign currency but with some recent changes in the law it's much easier just to get a Chinese friend to do it for you. You may have some luck using the red book as ID for hotels in smaller places. Otherwise, nice souvineer.
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Post by Becster79 on Sept 27, 2006 16:16:32 GMT 7
What's interesting in my case is that my FAO the other day informed me I CANNOT get a Foreign Experts Cert as I don't have enough experience- turns out you need to have at least 3 years experience in Shaanxi, I fall short of a year. Don't worry, I'm still legal- have a 2 year Z visa, but he said he will try to get me the FEC next year (hope so, I really really need money changed!).
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Post by Becster79 on Sept 27, 2006 16:17:22 GMT 7
Oh yeah, and in my last position in Gansu I WAS able to get an FEC no worries!
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Eagle's Nest
Barfly
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Post by Eagle's Nest on Sept 27, 2006 16:57:47 GMT 7
Just looked inside my passport and found the residence permit. Now all is clear. I imagine I will have to get it renewed before leaving in the summer for a trip back to Canada though as the permit is good only until July 31, 2007
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Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 27, 2006 18:14:23 GMT 7
Becster, they are lying to you. That FE cert is from day one.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Sept 27, 2006 20:14:24 GMT 7
The FEC (sometimes it's a Work Permit instead) is more than simply the right to exchange money! For most of us it's a precursor to getting the one you really want and need: The Residence Permit. The FEC/WP allows you to WORK here; the Residence Permit allows you to LIVE here.
The Z visa (aka "Work Visa") allows you to enter China with the intention of living here and working for a Chinese school or company or other authorized organization. Note that it allows you to enter China, not live in China.
Once in China, you (or at least your papers) go to the Labor Bureau to get an FEC or Work Permit. This entitles you to draw an RMB salary in China.
Next, you take your Z and your FEC and other papers to the PSB (police) and get your Residence Permit. Allow the big PSB police mans to inspect your apartment, and you're now official for the duration of your Residence Permit.
What can muddy the waters is that there are different kinds of authorizations to issue Residence Permits, and the specific requirements for each type can be different. An educational institution needs you to get an FEC. However, not all schools are actually using ed-inst authorizations...some buy them from all kinds of other companies, which means you can be working here as a teacher but holding a Residence Permit for some other walk of life.
Don't sweat it if this happens...
All this is why things like F visas ("business visas") are technically no good. You have no FEC/WP and therefore are not authorized to draw a Chinese salary. And you have no Residence Permit, so you are not authorized to rent an apartment and live in the regular community. By the letter of the law, F visas are for employees of foreign companies, living in company-provided housing, hotel rooms, or other places designated for housing transient foreigners.
Sure, a lot of people get away with having non-resident visas. However, I can't normally recommend this path to anyone except as a last resort. A residence permit IS worth having and it's worth some trouble to get one.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Sept 27, 2006 23:09:21 GMT 7
I came over on a Z visa and the university organised both the green book (Residence permit) and the Experts Certificate (Red Book) for me. I'm with Stil on the green book - so much better than carrying your passport all the time!! I now ahve my residence Permit in my passport.
Other teachers at the same university were NEVER granted a Red Book - Experts Certificate - either because in one case they did not ask, in others they were told that for an Experts Book you need a masters or you need to be staying for a certain length of time (i.e. 12+ months). I think the insitutions make up their mind about how many they are willing to sort out.
Switched universities and this university issued me with a new Experts Certificate (Red Book) - so I now have 2. They both sit in a drawer waiting for the day I want to change money - which given the exchange rate - I'd rather spend it here!
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Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 28, 2006 6:44:32 GMT 7
I am positive that you can't be employed as a foriegn expert without a FEC. Something is wrong here . . . .
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Non-Dave
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Post by Non-Dave on Sept 28, 2006 7:14:51 GMT 7
As usual, Raoul is right on the money.
The combinatoin of the FEC and the resident permit is the sign of a legit employer. The Z Visa is only the starting point that gets you into the country.
With my first job the school provided both the FEC and the resident permit. I never needed the FEC for anything, never tried to use it and it's now a lovely souvenir.
After changing jobs my current company got my resident permit renewed - but on the books I'm a manager, not a teacher, so I now have an Alien Employment Permit.
As I undersatnd it the FEC / Alien Employment Permit is completely irrelevant when it comes to re-entering China. The resident permit is what you need - otherwise an appropriate visa. I suspect that offereing a FEC / Alien Employment Permit at airport immigration will get you nowhere.
Enigma, you don't need a Z Visa if you're already here - you need the residency permit. If your school can't/won't get it for you they are not on the level - and it's not your responsibility to get it - it's theirs!
I would be getting in touch with my embassy, explaining the situation to them and taking their advice. Cover your butt on your legal working/living situation here.
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Ruth
SuperDuperMegaBarfly
God's provisions are strategically placed along the path of your obedience.
Posts: 3,915
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Post by Ruth on Sept 28, 2006 7:33:49 GMT 7
Last time I entered the country, the customs inspector was suspicious of my suitcase full of books - not the one with all the food, the one with all the books! When I showed him my FEC, told him I was an English teacher and the books were for teaching, he let me through without opening the suitcase. Only time I've used the FEC in the three years I've had it.
But, that's not what gets you re-entry to the country. Need the passport and visa for that.
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Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 28, 2006 11:16:11 GMT 7
I now have an Alien Employment Permit. Well, that explains both the avatar and the haircut. And perhaps answers the eternal question: Is there intelligent life out there? There must be, since they made you live here instead. I am not at all surprised that China has made first contact, since the US govt is always covering it up. |
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Post by gretch on Sept 28, 2006 14:47:23 GMT 7
What's interesting in my case is that my FAO the other day informed me I CANNOT get a Foreign Experts Cert as I don't have enough experience- turns out you need to have at least 3 years experience in Shaanxi...... He's lying........I didn't have 3 yrs experience and I worked in Shaanxi at a uni last semester, and they got me a FEC (and Residence Permit), no problem. And that was only for a one semester contract. |
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Post by Becster79 on Sept 28, 2006 18:22:17 GMT 7
But Gretch, is it still okay for me to be here in case he still DOESN'T get it? Maybe he doesn't have guanxi or something....other than that I am in an EXCELLENT college, treat me well, good teachers etc....and he's given me a 2 year multiple entry visa...
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Post by Raoul Duke on Sept 28, 2006 18:45:42 GMT 7
I agree with Gretch...he's lying to you. Is he getting you a Residence Permit? If so, I wouldn't sweat the FEC too much. It's usually smarter to change money "informally" anyway. If not, you don't want to be there.....  |
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Post by Lotus Eater on Sept 28, 2006 22:45:17 GMT 7
I've come across teachers with and without it - at the same university. So I wouldn't worry about it. You won't know the difference, because unles you want to change money formally, it isn't useful.
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