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Post by burlives on Jun 6, 2004 0:13:20 GMT 7
I think I see writing on the wall. Maybe the future is certificates and diplomas. A few months ago I would have said, who cares, but now I'm not so sure.
What are the current thoughts on tefl certification? Where? When? How much? What for? Has anyone got any stories of revelations they have had while being trained up? Any recommendations on particular certs from particular sources?
It's all because recently a guy basically lost his job and has six weeks to find it again because the relevant office -- of I forget where -- seems to require of foreigners that they have either a foreign experts certificate or a tefl certification and his FAO didn't go through the FEC process that second year.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Jun 6, 2004 0:37:58 GMT 7
I don't have a cert right now and personally don't think much of them. Most of them seem pretty worthless. I've worked with many "certified" colleagues, and most of them seemed as clueless as the rest of us. However, I am considering getting one. More and more ads are requiring them, and I've had to pass on some heartbreaker jobs in cool places because I don't have one. Jobs like I have now are few and far between...I may have to return to teaching English again someday. If that happens I'll need to be ready to compete.
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Post by MK on Jun 6, 2004 5:06:04 GMT 7
We'll, my view is that if you are serious about teaching as a career, then you better get some kind of teaching qualification...this shows employers you are serious...I have the CELTA and found it very good, and I am also going to do a further qualification...on the other hand, it's not the only relevant qualification, there are plenty of other qualifications you can market, and experience is very important too...are you speaking as someone who already has other non-EFL teaching qualifications? because the people I know in China who are doing best out of teaching gigs are those who can teach Maths/Physics etc (in English), they aren't really EFL teachers...
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Post by burlives on Jun 6, 2004 13:41:41 GMT 7
After three and a bit years in China I've got a solid semester of stuff to teach. This year it all came together and now I can list lessons according to which ones are needed first and which ones follow up, and I can do things like state objectives and methods. But I think I'm not an English teacher. In most weeks the classes include an explicit pronunciation component, but I don't teach it so much as relatively naively guide it. After that there's heavy emphasis on, and actual direct teaching of, the processes for developing and expressing ideas in English. There is no base level of English assumed because while the questions remain the same the practical interactions shift up or down in complexity according to what the student can express.
In other words, I'm teaching communication strategies to university students who have middle school English.
As a result of having this framework, I can directly see the benefit of having some framework. I'm able to assess my own efforts as a teacher and make some comparisons between goals, actual outcomes, government supposed outcomes, and broader ideal outcomes given that I'm supposed to be helping people acquire a language.
I suppose a CELTA or a TRINITY would provide the same thing. Right?
I also suppose it would be m'kaying hard work, expensive, and not immediately financially rewarding in the Chinese market.
The "Tefl International" thing in Zhuhai is currently about 13,000 rmb for four weeks. I know SILC in Shanghai runs a CELTA but I don't know the cost. And there's one in Beijing. Where's Steve when we need him? Why did he do his CELTA in Thailand instead of Shanghai?
And so on.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Jun 6, 2004 21:01:09 GMT 7
While I'm currently loath to do anything that might further enrich SILC, I can find out the cost of their CELTA course if you'd like. If you've been to Thailand, it's not hard to see why one would rather do it there than Shanghai. CELTA is one of the good ones. So is Trinity. I'd personally be leery of TEFL International (aren't these the people with the Banner Ad From Hell on Dave's?) but at least you have to attend a class there. I've known numerous people who outright purchased their certs from the internet.
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Post by con's fly is open on Jun 6, 2004 22:02:45 GMT 7
Monkey King, you hit the nail on the head: there are a million different things you can do with English in this country. If working your way up to a swank university is your goal, get the piece of paper. Otherwise, look at the actual training you will receive. My personal loathing for getting pieces of paper to validate me is what eventually forced me out of Canada. But any TESOL course would have saved me a lot of grief in the first several months here. Explaining English? Bu shi. Teaching steps? Fei cheng shi!
Burl, if some certification would help you, then go for it. But teaching in English is essentially TEACHING ENGLISH. And you have 3 1/2 years of experience doing that, without once beating one of the little idiots with a beer bottle (to my knowledge). Can't learn that in a course.
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Post by Nate M on Jun 6, 2004 22:08:50 GMT 7
There may be alot of options, but it seems as though quite a few of them are closing. There's a teacher on the TEFL China lists who's been teaching for 4 years in China and is now in danger of being deported within the next 5 or 6 weeks because he doesn't have a certificate.
I'm getting mine this summer, and I cringe at the idea of how much I'm paying for this, (doing it at a fairly expensive University here in the States), but figure in a couple of years it'll pay itself back with expanded job opportunities. I think it's probably already helped me get two job offers I may not have otherwise had.
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Post by con's fly is open on Jun 6, 2004 22:25:01 GMT 7
My employer got me around the closure of this loophole through a different loophole: a Type F visa. This circumvents the Education guys by going through the Economic bureau. I love this country.
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Post by MK on Jun 6, 2004 22:44:55 GMT 7
Are they really tightening up on the qualifications, officially? We had a foreign teacher at my university with no degree, no TEFL Cert, no prior teaching experience even...no problems for him getting a visa, and as far as I know he is still there.
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Post by con's fly is open on Jun 6, 2004 22:54:22 GMT 7
That's the word. But then, connections and a little green grease works wonders.
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Post by slim on Jun 6, 2004 23:05:16 GMT 7
There's a teacher on the TEFL China lists who's been teaching for 4 years in China and is now in danger of being deported within the next 5 or 6 weeks because he doesn't have a certificate. I find that hard to believe. Deported because there's no TEFL certificate on the CV? It seems a bit harsh if it's true. Maybe the person is being sacked, or kicked out the country, for other reasons; the "I've no TEFL certificate" excuse covering a multitude of sins. If China is trying to shake the industry up a bit, ie. remove the charlatans, then I'd like to know if there'll be a list of recognised certificates, because I doubt the average pen pusher at X Province Education Bureau will know the difference between a CELTA and a TESL Certificate from the Miehailing Institute of Fly Sprays. It all sounds like another Chinese fudge to me. Show the relevant authorities any piece of paper with your name, the word certificate, and the acronyms TEFL or TESL and they'll stamp your passport.
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Post by burlives on Jun 7, 2004 0:36:01 GMT 7
I figure two things. Firstly, I've got a semester of stuff and if I ever do end up staying in one school for a year that started in September, then I'll need two. Second, people in charge of foreigners seem to like firing their guns without taking them out of the holster so I'm betting certification requirements are going to be eased in with the usual clockwork precision and uniformity of everything else. These days I get a kick out of progression in the classroom. With some kind of teaching framework, a whatchacallit, a syllabus, it's possible to chart progress, know where to include materials, give meaningful exams. It's fun. Then, as far as I know a CELTA along with granting me one kind of teaching framework can give me a better chance at choosing where I work. Maybe it can let me broaden workplace horizons too. And for that kind of money I imagine it can keep me warm when I'm lonely too. These are the China CELTAs: www.cambridge-efl.org/teaching/centres/cn.cfmThis is the famous Thai CELTA: www.eccthai.com/And this is the Tefl International thing: www.teflcourse.net/Apparently it used to be a TRINTY thing but NOW IT'S NOT.
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proust
Upstanding Citizen
Posts: 84
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Post by proust on Jun 8, 2004 8:12:27 GMT 7
Back in Bushland, I used to see "certificate and diploma" software, which was accompanied by a supply of paper with curlicues, etc., and even a few gold seals. Hmmmm. A business opportunity?
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Roger
Upstanding Citizen
Posts: 243
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Post by Roger on Jun 8, 2004 20:54:54 GMT 7
I guess this certificate deserves mention and even praise if not underhanded advertising: The CTESOL from the English Schools Foundation. Check out www.eservices.com.hk( I hope I got the website right).
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Post by burlives on Jun 9, 2004 1:53:38 GMT 7
A google turned up the missing "d". www.edservices.org.hk/What's the CTESOL good for? The FAQ and CTESOL links in the webpage are dead ends. All I could find was an application form.
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Post by burlives on Jun 13, 2004 0:23:50 GMT 7
Well, Hans Klar at Shanghai SILC ain't saying nothing about his CELTA course, so.....
Does anyone have any experience with those guys? How about other locations? Any recommendations on books for preparation? Any indication if I might actually find said books nearby? Thoughts? Perspectives? China relevance? CELTA wins as my cert of choice at least in part because there seems to be no TRINITY TESOL hereabouts. All things being equal I think I'll make a plan to do the cert in the summer of 2005.
And it turns out I have a CELTA in my midst -- the longest serving staff member here got her's in Britain and she's still angry.
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Post by slim on Jun 13, 2004 1:43:21 GMT 7
Any recommendations on books for preparation? Any indication if I might actually find said books nearby? These are the books that the CELTA course in Thailand suggests one reads before they take the course... Practical Techniques for Language Teaching by Michael Lewis, Jimmie Hill How to Teach English by Jeremy Harmer Grammar for English Language Teachers by Martin Parrott ...I suggest you get in touch with Struelle over at the Cafe, he'll be able to say if the books were worth buying (you can order them via Amazon.com). I have the books but have been too busy to read them, I'm sure I'll get round to it one day. By the way, why is longest serving staff member still angry?
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Post by burlives on Jun 13, 2004 3:09:20 GMT 7
I tried contacting Steve but he won't answer. One time I called him Canadian. Maybe that did it.
The longest serving staff member found her CELTA tutor to be really cold. The LSSM had some strong ideas about what she needed to develop and she couldn't get the tutor to go there with her. She also felt that some of the CELTA axioms, specifically "reduce teacher talking time", don't quite fit the Chinese conditions wherein students positively need a structure imposed by the teacher. But she's got a CELTA so I suppose she's allowed to say stuff like that.
Has anyone had success ordering from Amazon into China?
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Post by slim on Jun 13, 2004 3:16:03 GMT 7
Has anyone had success ordering from Amazon into China? I personally haven't, but another FT in my current Chinese hometown has. She ordered a few books on games for the EFL classroom and they arrived without any problems.
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wOZfromOZ
Charter Member and Old Chum
Posts: 419
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Post by wOZfromOZ on Jun 13, 2004 19:48:37 GMT 7
I find that hard to believe. .........."I've no TEFL certificate" excuse covering a multitude of sins. If China is trying to shake the industry up a bit, ie. remove the charlatans, then I'd like to know if there'll be a list of recognised certificates, because I doubt the average pen pusher at X Province Education Bureau will know the difference between a CELTA and a TESL Certificate from the Miehailing Institute of Fly Sprays. It all sounds like another Chinese fudge to me. Show the relevant authorities any piece of paper with your name, the word certificate, and the acronyms TEFL or TESL and they'll stamp your passport. This may be so outside Shanghai but let me tell you this is not the case in Shanghai. The top Gov. Educational official here in Shanghai for Educational joint ventures is a guy named Mr. Cai. He was telling me the other day he oversees about 250 here in Shanghai alone. He's a top ranking public servant and a very honest, fair and compassionate one too. I first met him in Australia back in 1993. I'd just come back from a year here in shanghai at that time and I've met up with him a few times in the last 12 months. Now this guy is no idiot and he's very much about making the life of the genuine foreign expert a rewarding and happy one. I guess the operative words here are 'genuine foreign expert'. Like somebody said earlier, if you're serious about your work, your knowledge base, your skill level AND most importantly ( PROFESSIONALISM ) your students, you wont think too long about getting the requisite qualifications to legitimise the professional level of trust that these kids and their parents are putting in your hands when you walk through the classroom door and give your lessons quality service delivery - gotta be what it's about! wOZ
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Wolf
Charter Member and Old Chum
Though this be madness, yet there is method in it.
Posts: 1,150
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Post by Wolf on Jun 15, 2004 18:56:42 GMT 7
I personally haven't, but another FT in my current Chinese hometown has. She ordered a few books on games for the EFL classroom and they arrived without any problems. I ordered books from amazon.com as well (the USA one.) They got to Guangzhou with no problem. But then the currier company couldn't read the English adress (the post office always has.) There was a short delay, but after I called them and asked them nicely th send them to me, they did. Sorry, but I can't think of any good classroom guides off the top of my head. All the stuff I have is linguistic theory and various research.
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Post by George61 on Jun 15, 2004 19:21:02 GMT 7
Would that be Currier and Ives? That well known British Soap Manufacturer?
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Post by MK on Jun 17, 2004 4:55:31 GMT 7
A lot of the stuff you learn on the CELTA/Trinity really won't fly in China, the Cert is pretty 'ethnocentric' in that it has a very Western bias. When I first came to China, full of enthusiasm, after doing the TEFL Cert' my experience was not unlike this guys: www.onestopenglish.com/ProfessionalSupport/Travellog/teaching_english_china.htmHowever, a lot of what I learned was still very useful, I just had to apply it differently...with Chinese characteristics maybe.
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Post by Dr. Gonzo on Jun 17, 2004 5:08:01 GMT 7
When I exited university as a 21 year old newly minted high school teacher, I knew m'kay all about teaching. All those theories were just that, and I started my real learning on day one in the classroom. Thirty years on, and knowing quite a lot about teaching native speakers all about their own tongue, but not a great deal about TEFL, I combined teaching with the study of teaching: a post grad. TESOL course from an Aussie uni. The results were much more satisfying. The application of theory to practice came naturally, I actually found myself very involved; reading outside the curriculum, talking to people about how they learned a second language, trying different ideas, and being much more aware of what I was doing and why. So yes, get qualified, but I don't believe a CELTA [or whatever], THEN the classroom, is the way to go.
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roaming kiwi
Barfly
Cum'ere, boy, un let ol' pappy tell ya a story.
Posts: 264
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Post by roaming kiwi on Jun 17, 2004 6:36:21 GMT 7
Although it goes against my better judgement I tend to agree with Dr G. From my own sordid teaching experience I started by lecturing in second year Western Art music composition at university, crashed into a one year post grad diploma in secondary teaching that was 50% hands on learning (and assessment), then essentially 3 years of teaching in Music, Computing and Social Studies. Even with this mish-mash I decided to invest in a CELTA. Why? Well even after harrassing the ESOL departments at all the schools I worked at, I realised I had a shi-t load to learn. Plus I like it when someone else has done the ground work in searching for resources. It gives me something tangible to work with. That 4 week course helped me re-assess my normal classroom teaching and answered a few nagging questions about problems I was having. You are under a microscope - which I found liberating in a strange sort of way. I found that I could REALLY experiment with techniques and have 7 others scrutinise, critise and generally rip me to shreds in a good humoured way! How has it helped me in China? Resources - I know where to look for help. Classroom management - it's helped me hone my "staging". I know my noun from my elbow. Less teaching talk time was the bane of my CELTA course so I made a point in one of my last classes in the course to NOT speak at all. I made it to 40 minutes without saying a word! I just wanted to prove a point, to whom? Don't know. There's more to say, but I've got to go to class.
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