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Post by burlives on Jan 19, 2005 19:13:41 GMT 7
Chinese have a way of making me worthless in negotiation. It has something to do with their sense of in-group and out-group, and the idea that deals with anyone out-group are not serious. I find I am always out-group. How does one negotiate in this circumstance?
Most recently, I have found myself entering a contract with a school that it seems daily reveals some new poison. They want me to pay for a Residence Permit and an Expert's Card. They want a 100 yuan deposit for the key to the apartment. They want a 500 yuan (!!!) deposit for a m'kaying telephone. They want an independant medical examination as well as the local examination. Lastly, and a great big fat tree of a back-breaking straw it is, they provide a cable internet connection but "[my boss] told me that it is really difficult almost impossible for us to provide you a computer."
I can swallow fees, but if I knew that "free cable internet" meant "(computer not included)", I would not have looked twice at the job ad. Now I'm locked in as far as having sent some bags there and having sent my passport off to get their Z visa pasted in. Every other goddamn school has said "free internet connection" and it meant there was a goddamn computer in your m'kaying house.
How do I negotiate?
Specifically, if I come right out and say "no computer, no deal", aren't they just going to say "no deal"? Why wouldn't they? They still have six weeks to find some one-year wonder for the real China experience.
How can I be so angry and still go there to work?
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Post by ChinaGurl on Jan 19, 2005 22:03:19 GMT 7
In spite of my usual advice of allowing the Chinese to 'save face', this is one situation where I would advise you to stick to your guns and tell them, "No computer, no deal."
Look at it this way. You're here in China already, and that's a definite asset. If the school really wants you to stay (I know how qualified you are, and so do they) they'll give you whatever you want. If they don't want to keep you there, move on and find another job. It'll be easy for you.
I'm thinking if you tell them that you'll leave, they'll give you a computer (but you might wish they hadn't... it could end up being a used model that they pull out of someone else's office that'll stress you out more than not having a computer. Just in case, tell them you want a brand new one. They're not that expensive.)
There are times when it's ok to bend over and let the Chinese do what they will. This is not one of those times. If you don't show them that you're serious now, then down the road they'll nickel and dime you every chance they get.
In fact, not only would I tell them I want a new computer, but I would also tell them that they must cover the cost of the Residence Permit and the Expert Card. They really should do that anyway.
Oh... wait until you get your passport back to do this. You don't want them holding it ransom.
As far as negotiation goes, the best tactic I've found is this. Argue for way more than what you want, and then make a big deal out of how low you're willing to go before you finally agree. The trick is to figure out where they're going to start, and that should give you a good idea of where you should start. Always let them go first. For example, if I want 6000RMB next year when I renegotiate my contract, I wait and see what they offer (5500). Then I take that number and tell them I want whatever will give the average of what I really want when combined with their offer (6500)... and we go back and forth until we finally get to where I wanted to be in the first place.
In your case, Burl, the best thing to do is tell them you want a top-of-the-line state-of-the-art multimedia computer with all the bells and whistles. I mean, the kind that'll make toast for you. Then negotiate with them until they get you a custom made bare-bones-but-still-fast-and-efficient-and-highly-usable computer.
You may never be in the in-group, but you can learn to tell how far you can go with people by how much they need or don't need you.
And the bottom line: If they're not giving you what you want, walk away. Go through the motions of leaving. They might come through with something at the last minute. If they don't, they'll find someone else, you'll find something else, and you'll all be happy in the morning.
By the way, Burl... this school sounds a little dodgy. If you do leave, make sure to give us all a heads up on what school it is.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Jan 20, 2005 0:08:32 GMT 7
I agree with CG on all fronts. You can't take this kind of nonsense. And this school DOES seem dodgy...it sounds like they are not honoring their contract with you, and this is the mother of all bad omens.
China has brought out negotiating skills in me I'd have never found in the States.
If you let them screw you on one thing, they'll screw you on a thousand. Don't let them start.
The Chinese are masters of bluff and testing the waters. Don't let it work...learn to say 'no', and stick to it. I'll bet that none of those deposits are contractual...they're just trying now to see what they can get away with with you. A deposit on a house key is ludicrous. What will they do- not issue you a key? If they insist on the phone deposit, tell them you don't want to turn it on, and apply the 500 toward a mobile...and don't give them the number. It'll be a lot easier for them to copy a key, and have access to you by phone, than it ever will be for you to get those deposits back. IMHO all this is bluff, and nickel-and-diming. Don't let them do it.
You are likely to get hit with arguments that are terribly unfair, completely illogical, and/or blatant lies. When you encounter these, call them on it. Don't let them just slide on by. Fairness and logic are the best weapons you have. Be fair, be reasonable, and be friendly. Yield on points you don't care about..but don't get bulldozed, or bullshat, on the ones you do care about.
If your contract is materially violated, hit the 'net and move on ASAP. They have 6 weeks to find a genuine moron...you have 6 weeks to find a better job.
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Post by Hamish on Jan 20, 2005 5:31:21 GMT 7
PM me your resume.
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Post by burlives on Jan 20, 2005 9:07:12 GMT 7
Okay, I've been direct. I said "no comptuer, no deal" and set up a discussion of fees and deposits for later. And sent Hamish my resume, and made contact with some former schools, and I'll be hitting the net while I can. I'll tell y'all what happens next when it happens.
My specific circumstance is as I have described but perhaps a little more logistically challenged than apparent. I'm in Oz right now. My negotiations are emailed. They've got two bags and my bike, and my passport is in the mail somewhere between my mother's house and the Canberra outpost of Chinese world domination.
According to foreign contacts at the school the foreigners there accept the terms as outlined.
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Lager
SuperBarfly!
Posts: 1,081
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Post by Lager on Jan 20, 2005 10:02:07 GMT 7
Might they say sorry too late---application is at PSB blah blah, Place did this to me last summer when I decided this town sucks---basically they lied and I let it go...
Getting off on the wrong foot soured it---but you know I guess,,,
But they have time to find someone. I got a bit lucky in Shanghai---they wanted someone to committ so they can go on holiday...Otherwise they would have easily found someone abroad...I didn't ask enough questions and might get some surprises---but I met the staff---5 out of 6 are staying so a good sign I guess...
30 teachers? That may be why the nickel and diming. For a trivial example---was supplied water first 2 jobs but not here...I guess why collect 5Y evry week or 2 from just a few teachers---but with 40 or so FE's (not all laowai though) it becomes worth it for someone or other to line their pockets,,,my theory anyway,
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Post by burlives on Jan 25, 2005 12:30:01 GMT 7
It is now five days since I emailed "no computer, no deal", and it is six days since I heard anything from the school. It is variously five, four and three days since I have been in contact with 8 recruiters and not one school. So, Ladies and Germs, thanks for all the sterling advice.
At every school so far something like this has happened. Something that might have started as negotiation becomes a strained exchange, and then there is a period of distressing uncertainty, and then everything goes back to the way it was going to be anyway. Except in this case I seem to have m'kayed myself out of a job. I should have known better. But knowing that I am less than a cog in the eyes of what might laughingly be called my employer is not the same as quelling my need for some kind of respect.
I'm going to Thailand tomorrow for four weeks of intensive study. I'll stop by a year from now and see if it made any difference.
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Post by Hamish on Jan 25, 2005 14:09:46 GMT 7
You're much better off than if you had kept the job.
Get a platter of Crying Tiger in Thailand on me.
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