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Post by Raoul Duke on Jul 3, 2004 22:19:49 GMT 7
Hi! This is an attempt to create a relative cost of living index for Chinese cities. It's based on the US government official per diem rates for travel in China. Those numbers are assuming hotel stays, restaurant meals etc. and therefore probably have little meaning for us in themselves, so I've indexed them to the "Other China Average" numbers in order to show proportions. If some of these numbers seem high, remember that these are all major business and/or international tourist destinations...they're going to be higher than Nowheresville. This ain't gospel, folks...it's intended to be a very general rule of thumb. I'd be especially suspicious of the Housing numbers since they're based ultimately on hotel rates. If you think of the "housing" here as nicer, rich-western-expat-type apartments these numbers may not be so far off the mark. Also be aware that while most of this data is pretty fresh, some of it is apparently a bit older. I think utilities are built into housing here, too...for example, in Harbin water and heat are quite large expenses! But I hope it'll be a good general guide to relative costs for different places in China. (By the way, Suzhou probably falls somewhere between Nanjing and Hangzhou...) I guess a good way to read this would be "What will cost me 100 RMB to live in Bumfuq, China will cost me 204 RMB in Shanghai." | Housing | Other | Total | Beijing | 220 | 130 | 176 | Chengdu | 185 | 116 | 151 | Chongqing | 144 | 122 | 133 | Dalian | 162 | 124 | 143 | Fuzhou | 133 | 90 | 112 | Guangzhou | 148 | 160 | 154 | Guilin | 182 | 144 | 164 | Hangzhou | 194 | 83 | 140 | Harbin | 152 | 89 | 121 | Kunming | 200 | 94 | 148 | Lhasa | 170 | 78 | 125 | Lijiang | 214 | 79 | 148 | Nanjing | 180 | 105 | 143 | Shanghai | 241 | 165 | 204 | Shantou | 135 | 79 | 108 | Shenyang | 145 | 132 | 139 | Shenzhen | 165 | 159 | 162 | Tianjin | 133 | 140 | 136 | Xiamen | 135 | 83 | 109 | Xian | 97 | 87 | 92 | Other China Avg | 100 | 100 | 100 |
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Post by Nate M on Jul 3, 2004 22:27:36 GMT 7
Is this taken from an online source? I'd be interested in checking out some other areas, if they're available.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Jul 3, 2004 22:44:37 GMT 7
Yup. For the raw numbers for all areas outside the continental USA try www.state.gov/m/a/als/prdm/2004/34036.htmBear in mind that these are for travelers staying in hotels and eating in restaurants. It's an expensive lifestyle anywhere. For that reason I think trying to compare, say, Adelaide and Shenyang based on these numbers will be highly deceptive. But I think within one country the proportions may hold fairly true when indexed...
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Post by Nate M on Jul 4, 2004 3:53:49 GMT 7
Did you notice that there were a couple numbers in there, though, that hadn't been updated since '94!
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Lager
SuperBarfly!
Posts: 1,081
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Post by Lager on Jul 4, 2004 14:50:12 GMT 7
So Xian would be one of the cheapest places here...
Lijiang (which I have never heard of) among the priciest...Can "other" only cost half what it does in GZ and S-hai...?...
Jinan would go the expensive end I think...
Interesting...But if it means for high end travelers it might explain Lhasa being expensive and Xian being cheap (masses keep prices down.)...Surprised Fuzhou and Xiamen are on the cheap end...They are next on my want-to-visit list...
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Post by con's fly is open on Jul 4, 2004 20:43:59 GMT 7
Remember that those on the list are all major cities, while jerkwater burgs like mine comprise "other". The prices here are too low too believe.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Jul 4, 2004 21:37:46 GMT 7
I would expect the closest analogs to Jinan to be Tianjin or Dalian...up there but not the worst.
Can life in Shanghai be twice as expensive as life in Bumfuq? Easily. Xian I think is not such a big city. I think it's still rather poor outside of those with tourism concessions of some kind. It's too isolated to ever compete with other areas for massive industrial base. But I could be wrong here...
I would imagine that finding a really nice apartment in Lhasa must really be a bitch, while in Kunming there's probably a mile-long waiting list.
I think Xiamen tends to enjoy an easy life by the standards of Chinese cities. It's smaller than Guangzhou and other regional giants. It gets some share of turistas but not nearly so many as Guilin or Hangzhou. Food, land, and water are in comparatively easy supply. The climate is relatively moderate except for some summer steam. Fuzhou I don't know much about.
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Post by con's fly is open on Jul 6, 2004 11:36:31 GMT 7
We need to find the definitive product that best reflects relative prices in various places. I suppose rent is good, but square footage (metreage?) is problematic: what of location, location, location? Quality of the building? Etc? Besides, I live rent-free, so I just dunno. I'll try a few: a 24 case of 830mL bottles of Tsingtao beer- 32RMB. Cab ride: car- 5RMB, motorbike-2RMB. Xi lin cigarettes (Stone Forest)-4RMB, ChiPiLang (Septwolves)- 7RMB.
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Ruth
SuperDuperMegaBarfly
God's provisions are strategically placed along the path of your obedience.
Posts: 3,915
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Post by Ruth on Jul 6, 2004 12:14:23 GMT 7
We pay 3 RMB, which includes a .5 deposit, for Tsingtao. Bull, Harbin, Snow and other brands are 2 RMB per bottle, including the deposit, so really a case of 24 is 36 RMB. Taxis are the same as what Con quoted. I have no idea about the cigarettes.
A motorcycle taxi driver held up 3 fingers the other day when I showed him the Chinese characters for where I live. I must have looked shocked because he quickly changed it to 2, which is the going rate. I just swept my arm out in a dismissive (I hope) gesture and moved on to the next guy. I've lived here too long to be taken in like that. Also, the day I met Lagerlout at the train station the guy wanted 6 RMB to take us home. (I paid 5 to get to the train station and it's 5 everywhere else in town.) He agreed when I said 5. If he hadn't, I was getting out of the cab.
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Post by Nate M on Jul 6, 2004 20:05:46 GMT 7
How about saying where you're at while mentioning prices? And perhaps some costs for larger items could be helpful too, as it's difficult to get significant percentage differences when all the items in question only cost 2 or 3 RMB.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Jul 6, 2004 23:58:05 GMT 7
I think it'll be tough to find many products that compare well. I think apartment rents are very telling, but as Con pointed out how do you make sure the apartments are truly comparable? Prices for beer and cigarettes don't really vary that much nationwide. Car taxis seem to come in one of 3 flavors across China- 5, 8, or 10 RMB. Many cities, including Shanghai, don't have motorcycle taxis. Food's expensive in Shanghai, but at the time I lived in Beijing food prices were controlled there. A Beijing Duck can be 250 RMB in one Beijing restaurant, and 60 RMB in another place just down the street. Part of the problem is not prices, it's also choices. Shanghai is MUCH more expensive than, say, Zhengzhou. Prices are higher, yes, but there's also MUCH more to do and buy here. Here's my suggestion: we send Lagerlout and George on a fact-finding national tour, with the instructions to go to all the cities on our list and "have as good a time as you possibly can." We can then for each city compare the amount of bail we have to raise to spring them both from the local hoosegows. Simple, easy to standardize, statistically significant, and much of the data has already been collected. .
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Post by George61 on Jul 7, 2004 11:32:43 GMT 7
Sounds good to me...You'll just have to find a sponsor!
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Crippler
Barfly
Beware the conspiracy!
Posts: 345
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Post by Crippler on Jul 7, 2004 11:40:24 GMT 7
And of course Crippler will need to go as a chaperone/body guard. I will keep the heavies off, taste test the food and drink and inspect the ladies for these two fine gentlemen..
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Post by George61 on Jul 7, 2004 13:09:34 GMT 7
Ta, mate...maybe Mike can sponsor us...or Li Ning...you bein a sporting personality of some sort.
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Lager
SuperBarfly!
Posts: 1,081
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Post by Lager on Jul 7, 2004 14:38:02 GMT 7
I know someone has a "Big-Mac" index comparing Mcdonalds in different countries...I see a flaw in this though..Big Mac prices in rural China and Manhattan would be quite similar..But I think it works comparing countries in the same region.
For China---bail price sounds as good as anything. ;D Or an unscientific "have a good time." Out barhopping in Shanghai one day I spent---don't ask! No way you could spend this much elsewhere on the same things..
I'm thinking hotels...2-3 stars . One quirk I noticed was Guangzhou has nice and cheap hotels...
Beer is tough because every city has different brands...By the way Con--you sure that isn't 12 bottles rather than 24?
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Post by ilunga on Jul 7, 2004 14:49:47 GMT 7
I think Luoyang is as cheap as any of the places mentioned. Taxis start at 5 RMB for up to 3km. Beer is cheap. 2RMB for a pint-sized glass of the local stuff (fresh). Food is really cheap but that's hard to compare. Big bowl of noodles for 3-4 RMB. Delicious, big, pie-like bao zi - 3 for 1RMB A decent hotel costs 70-80RMB. I once stayed in a place for 20RMB. Man, it was like something out of the dark ages. I was half-expecting Norman Bates to wake me up during the night. I paid 138RMB for a 2 bed room with a computer in Zhengzhou the other night. I thought that was alright. I live on campus but I know you can get a decent 2 bed place for 400 a month easily. Shanghai would be at least twice as expensive to live I would guess, depending on what your indulgences are.
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Post by con's fly is open on Jul 7, 2004 18:19:27 GMT 7
Beer is tough because every city has different brands...By the way Con--you sure that isn't 12 bottles rather than 24? Definitely: I just hauled some in from the Mom-and-Pop store across the street. And they deliver (across the street, anyway). And they come and get the empties.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Jul 8, 2004 1:50:59 GMT 7
The Big Mac Index comes from The Economist, which despite its grim-sounding name is one of the world's great business magazines. It measures something like the number of hours the average local citizen has to work in order to buy a Big Mac, or maybe the fraction of income required to buy a Big Mac, whose prices are fairly close to standard worldwide. It is indeed much better at comparing countries than cities. Lager, from what I know of you, I don't think there's anything unscientific about your having a good time. I thought about hotels too, but hotels present some of the same problems as apartments. Within one city there can be a LOT of variation in price, even at the same "star rating", depending upon location and other details. Even Shanghai has reasonably cheap 2-star hotels. Although it looks like Ilunga has discovered the joys of the Chinese luguan. Better to stick with a bingguan or jiudian.... Meanwhile beer seems to be pretty consistent in price nationwide despite different local brands. At least in a store there's not a lot of difference in price between Shanghai's Reeb, Suzhou's Taihushui, Beijing's Yanjing, or all the other local brands I've encountered. Tsingtao is more expensive than the locals but about the same everywhere.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Aug 2, 2004 17:53:26 GMT 7
OK guys, I am totally miffed - there is no way you are going to be able to do this research without including us women in the research team. The results you would develop would be gender biased and not take into account the really important stuff (apart from beer, which we have already dismissed). Talk about scientific method ! Who will sponsor me? Xi'an is pretty good - even the expensive places aren't as bad as Beijing, and the cheap places have great food.
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Post by George61 on Aug 2, 2004 18:48:04 GMT 7
Trouble is, it's too bloody hard to get any consistency if you use a womans POV....they are all too prone to indulge in ...in....poo, I can't think of the bloody word...my brain is going...That's it!!...IMPULSE buying....is anyone else losing their grasp of English? Yeah, impulse buying....it does not give an accurate picture of cost of living, comparatively speaking. I suppose you could always make a checklist of...umm...umm..ah...cosmetics??...pads??...bras??..stockings??? can we afford to send Debbo on a trip around China....(hang on, she has already been on one!)....checking out the comparitive prices of sanitary products??......I don't think so! NO! It seems obvious to me, that the really important and consistent staples of life should be the criteria....beer...cigarettes....red wine.....stuff like that!
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Post by Lotus Eater on Aug 2, 2004 18:57:32 GMT 7
Red wine I can do - and surely impulse buying is what we mostly do - to fulfill our hedonistic impulses? Therefore as you are self confessed not good at it - the research team should actually be comprised of women!
And look at the bits you can leave out cos I've already done them - way cheaper than sending you drunken louts who would completely forget the whole point of the research and merely end up with the DTs.
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Post by George61 on Aug 2, 2004 19:29:24 GMT 7
HA!!...anybody can do red wine!!!...........but not many can do it PROPERLY!!...I consider myself to be a self-proclaimed Foreign Expert in that field...so it has to be me!! Now the thing about impulse buying is, there is no consistency.......Ruth might fall in love with a cute little plastic imitation moulding of a Sechuan copy of a Hunan embroidered fan.............GREAT!!....how do we get an accurate approximation of the comparitive cost of buying one of those in HongKong, for example? It won't work, girls...you are too impulsive ( I remembered)....it's only men who can look dispassionately at any particular item and coolly calculate the cost in any one of a dozen widely spread cities in China.....(I just luuuuuuurrrrrrve alliteration)
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Post by Raoul Duke on Aug 2, 2004 19:32:02 GMT 7
The DTs are the point of the research!
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Post by George61 on Aug 2, 2004 19:59:30 GMT 7
EXACTLY!!!!!
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Post by Lotus Eater on Aug 2, 2004 21:37:36 GMT 7
Back off boys - red wine is my field!! It is scientifically proven that women's taste buds and smell buds ( ) are way more accurate than fellas, therefore real appreciation of red wine is our area! Secondly, our impulse buying will provide a highly sensitive barometer of Chinese comparison costing, carefully, conscientiously considered calculations. Why - because if Ruth does fall in love with the then she will also fall in love with a very similar one in Urumqi, Xining, Kunming, Lanzhou etc - and create a collection. Me - I have collections of turtles, Metro bags, Buddhas in their various incarnations, prayer beads (esp. wrist ones) DVDs, CDs (and fans ). And rocks - but they are free so don't count! Therefore purchasing these all over China will constitue reliable research data. I could be convinced to conduct research on shoe costs, and comparative tailoring as well if required. The cost for shipping our impulse collections back to home city will add further data to the research. And we won't need hospitalization as often! Those pink elephants sure do some damage!
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