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Post by con's fly is open on Aug 16, 2005 21:16:04 GMT 7
I came back to my school on the spur of the moment. I arrived on a tourist visa, as I did last time, when they upgraded it to a "Foreign Expert" green book- I didn't have a TEFL cert at the time (NEWBIES: NEVER EVER GO ANYWHERE TO TEACH WITHOUT A COURSE THAT INCLUDES CLASSROOM PRACTICE).
So I did the same this time. I took a TEFL course because the laws changed and there was no way around having one. Even though I've got a year's experience teaching all ages, I'm glad I had to, because I've got a library of lessons at my disposal, plus the refresher was valuable, and I learned a couple of new things.
I had to negotiate, as I had last year, my summer salary (extra work, every stinking day); I took no extra money, since i hadn't signed a contract, and openly inteded to piss off as soon as I found a replacement- and a couple more to boot: this is a great school, and wants to expand.
They have motives: every one is lined up to help me out. Plus they're frineds, and stand-up people. But there are problems in the process:
1. I don't have a university degree. Neither does Chris, their FT in another town. The rules, apparently have changed, and this is vital to getting the Type-Z visa and subsequent green book (like a green card).
2. The visa upon which you arrive is vital. The headmaster is straining his guanxi and bribery skills to their limit, and he should be able to bull(Perfectly understandable attempt by Raoul to evade the robo language cop - unfairly picked on, ain't he?) a full-year green book for Chris... but not me. I came on a tourist visa, and the best he could score was another one, good for 2 more months.
3. Can he get a third tourist visa after that? God knows.
4. When I move away to a new job, odds are I'll have to go to Hong Kong to get a fresh visa- and wave a diploma to get it.
I've been combing job ads, and have found the degree requirement is almost universal: even when they don't specify this, it comes up in the followup letter. Most schools are desperate for native English laowai, and many have opened their first letter to me with "you're hired! When can you come?", so I am convinced that a post-secondary piece of paper is now mandatory, by government decree, and not just in Liaoning Province.
This is a big development. I'll keep updating as I learn more, but this is a very big deal, so if any of y'all have something to add, do so.
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Post by Marisha on Apr 4, 2006 11:04:07 GMT 7
It's been brought to my knowledge that most provinces require a degree and an internationally recognized TEFL certification to get the working Z visa. However, if you're hired to work for an institution with the right connections, or guanxi, obtaining the visa will not be an issue.
Also, you don't have to have a degree to get a job, although it does help. Many teachers here work on the F visa and some even on the L visa. If you have an internationally recognized TEFL certification and are a native speaker, there a loads of jobs for you too! A job ad will always give the desired profile, but there are many exceptions.
Also, when doing a TEFL course, you should make sure it meets international standards and has observed teaching practice...this is extremely important. If you're going to do it, do it right!
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Post by Mr Nobody on Apr 5, 2006 15:24:13 GMT 7
Marisha, I feel you must be careful on how you advise people. Yes, you can teach on a F or L visa, but I am fairly certain that this is actually illegal, and some people get caught and deported, although many others get away with it. You should advise people of that also. A "Z" visa is the only legal visa for teaching English, I am sure. You can work on an L visa, but not teach English - it is for people advising businesses, which is covered by a different set of laws, which some people skate around.
And it isn't the province that states that you need a degree before you can get a Foreign Expert's certificate for teaching here, it is at national level, although it also states that experience (I seem to remember 2 years teaching) can get around this. Provincial authorities simply enforce it differently, or rather, indifferently.
All that said, yes, you can get around anything here, or the school can, if it (or you) has the guanxi. Once you have a job, they will fix it. Many people work without degrees or experience or a TEFL certificate, and some I am sure do it quite well, despite my own experiences with such people.
Apparently, though, it is getting harder without the right paperwork ie, degree and tefl and/or experience, a passport from one of a particular list of countries (Oz, NZ, USA, Ireland, South Africa, Scotland, and Canada are it from memory, and are specified in the legislation); and a white face, which is not enshrined in the legislation but is in a lot of FAO's tiny little minds.
I agree it is better that you have someone watching you for your TEFL teaching, but I also I feel personally that a TEFL certification is the least of a person's worries. Largely, it don't mean beans, and neither does the degree, as far as actually doing the job goes.
I would have said nothing, except that I felt that advising people of potentially illegal acts, even if well intentioned and likely to not cause any problems, should be countered with a little extra information and caution.
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gengrant
SuperBarfly!
Hao, Bu Hao?
Posts: 1,818
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Post by gengrant on Apr 8, 2006 0:47:06 GMT 7
yeah, as Nobby said...there are always exceptions to the rule, but the law should be followed in the interest of keeping yourself from being deported, or worse, subjected to critiscism from George.
and also as he said, the TEFL is low on priority level...it's not a national law yet...just some schools are requiring it...so check with the school when you send your info to them...
the college degree IS a law, however...but it doesn't specify what kind of degree...my wife has a 2 year degree...I have a Masters...both were fine to get us jobs.
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Post by gretch on May 19, 2006 13:13:32 GMT 7
I may be jumping the gun here, but like to plan ahead...
I am currently have a Z visa w/ residence permit, which expires Aug30 2006; issued in Xianyang, Shaanxi province.
I plan to move to Suzhou for next school year, and want to know about getting a new visa, etc, for that term . Is this something I should expect the new school to handle. Or will I have to go out of country (HK) to renew it? I'm confused as to why some people have to go to HK for renewal. Is it those working on visas other than Z?
Also, is my residence permit location specific, and no good if I move out this town?
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Post by Norbert Radd on May 19, 2006 15:40:58 GMT 7
the local psb should be able to handle it. sign out with your psb before you leave
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Post by joe on May 19, 2006 16:20:17 GMT 7
The (single entry) Z visa entitles you to enter the country. Sometime during the next 30 days your employer arranges with the appropriate government office to issue you with residence papers. If you leave one position of employment with a letter of release (saying nothing more than that you legally finished your employment with them), then you have a certain amount of time (I think it may be four days, but I'm not at all sure) to move to a new place and have a new employer begin the process of having your former residence papers cancelled and new residence papers issued.
That's the way it works with the residence permits that are stuck into your pasport. The old green books don't get cancelled; they have back pages for transfer of residence.
You go to Hong kong only if someone m'kays up and you pass the date of expiry of your current residence permit without renewing it, or having entered the process of renewal.
The appropriate person or persons to take care of this are your foreign affairs officer or your Human Resources manager.
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Post by Lotus Eater on May 19, 2006 18:00:15 GMT 7
If your contract is up in July and you have a job in Suhou, you could turn up to your new school before August 30th and they should handle it for you. Augsut 30 is probably after the time you start work anyway.
When I swapped jobs, the new uni asked for my Green book and passport nearly a month before I was due to leave the old one, and had it all organised before I left to head home for Spring Festival.
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Post by gretch on May 19, 2006 20:31:46 GMT 7
That helps, thanks all!!!
My residence permit is in my passport, no green book, just the Red book/ Foreign Expert book...
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Post by mermaid56 on May 29, 2006 22:40:45 GMT 7
our college is striving to become a really truly university and have tightened up to match the law. Two of the gals one here 6 years (a true old china hand) and another (5 years) do not have BAs-four year degrees-and were told last year this would be their final contract. So both have now been given the heave-ho and are leaving for points home. This is a strict government requirement for any school that wants to be on the up and up.
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Loops
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Raoul, after a day reading the garbage we dump on his forum...
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Post by Loops on May 30, 2006 2:17:09 GMT 7
I am currently in the process of renewing my L visa and let me tell you that this ride has more ups and downs than the Mega-Coaster backhome at Six Flags...m'kay me...there is nothing more draining than having to deal with dolts who work in offices that supposedly cater to foreigners...none of the monkeys I dealt with spoke a bloody word of English...one thing they did have in common was that they all had that thousand yard stare that implies their total incompetence and their total lack of thought...backwards assed country bumpkins, all of'em...I'm slowly rapidly going nuts... Gonna love to see them come the Olympics, what are they gonna do...I sure hope it's more than what they are doing now...jackshiyit!
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Loops
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Raoul, after a day reading the garbage we dump on his forum...
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Post by Loops on May 30, 2006 13:32:40 GMT 7
Turns out I need to show 100US$ per day, in a Chinese bank, on my visa...so if I have a 30 day visa, I need to show 3kUSD$...wtf is that all about? Seems like China is in "Let's-complicate-shiyit-for-the-foreigner" mode... I wonder if they had the forethought to know that if anyone asks me about my trip I will be spewing garble and urging them to visit some other Asian country...m'kay China and it's crazy backwards assed bureaucratic red tape bullshiyit... I won't be singing China's praises...not in this lifetime...for the birds is what it is...I cannot understand what the logic is behind all of this, is it to frustrate the foreigner into leaving? If so they have done a very good job...I'm seriously thinking of packing my bags and heading for a civilized world which includes people who speak English at tourist offices, people who know what the m'kay is going on, people who actually want to help , people who understand that tourism is an excellent source of income and free advertising (when you get home you will be telling everyone great things and to go and visit), people who don't over-complicate things/processes for no apparent reason...OK, full stop. Thank god you can't purchase handguns in China cause my head would be already be splattered all over this nice white wall...
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Post by Lotus Eater on May 30, 2006 13:40:54 GMT 7
Poor loops - it's not fun trying to sort all of this out. Fingers crossed it works out for you.
But ...... how many languages do the tourist agencies back home speak?
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Post by George61 on May 30, 2006 13:50:58 GMT 7
HA!! I have to get my current 30 day "L" changed to a "Z" again. I have done this...or had it done...in Jinan before, so hopefully there will be no hassle! Fingers crossed.
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Loops
Barfly
Raoul, after a day reading the garbage we dump on his forum...
Posts: 389
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Post by Loops on May 30, 2006 14:41:44 GMT 7
But ...... how many languages do the tourist agencies back home speak? The tourist agencies speak 2 languages! French and English. English is a world language... My country isn't a great example because English is a native language, so let's take a country where English is not the native language; Germany for instance, they speak English everywhere, even in the smallest of convenience stores in the middle of the forest in some forgotten part of the country. Let's take another country, France; the tourist offices there speak at least 3 languages(German, French and English)...and the French hate the English with a passion...Hell, my pops had travelled extensively around the world and he was impressed that even in Dacca, Bangladesh, they spoke English wherever they had foreigner traffic... Bangladesh, for pete's sake!!!Remember LE, I am not in a small town somewhere in buttm'kaysville, China...I am in Suzhou, 40 minutes from Shanghai...a city which boasts it's tourist attractions to the world profusely...if I were in some small shiyithole out in the backwoods of China then I would have to swallow the problems and deal...I really wonder if the Chinese realize that the Olympics, being held here, will have many tourists running around the country, mostly in the big cities, and if shiyit continues this way, people will be turned off and will not want to come back...but that is none of my concern... I wonder if this treatment is reserved for foreigners or if it's the same for the locals if and when they want to get stuff done...If it's the same for the locals it would explain the huge amount of dolts and monkeys running around thinking they've got a brain, therefore they're human...
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Post by acjade on May 30, 2006 15:09:49 GMT 7
The standard of English throughout Thailand and Malaysia and Singapore is pretty good especially in the service areas. Personally I think China is gonna have a real shock when the Olympics roll around.
The tourists will continue to flock to Hong Kong but it's nowhere as popular as it was. I wonder what it's like in Taiwan?
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Post by George61 on May 30, 2006 15:14:02 GMT 7
Having a bad day, Loops??
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Post by Lotus Eater on May 30, 2006 15:39:39 GMT 7
I don't think too many tourist agents speak other languages in Oz. One I used spoke Japanese - but no-one spoke Chinese or European languages. We figure if you got yourself here - you should have the ability to converse with us - nothing ethnocentric about us!!
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Post by acjade on May 30, 2006 15:44:53 GMT 7
The Chinese travelling to Oz mostly use the China Town agencies. Go to China Town restaurants and China Town hairdressers and cinemas.
The banks etc all have translation services. Even thr ruddy social services have translation services.
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Post by Mr Nobody on May 30, 2006 21:45:11 GMT 7
Hey, loops, get your FAO dude to handle it, maybe. I know you are on a course, but they should be able to deal with it, yes?
And have a beer, calm down, and try to get some more of that bloody mary mix, will ya?
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Loops
Barfly
Raoul, after a day reading the garbage we dump on his forum...
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Post by Loops on May 31, 2006 0:30:41 GMT 7
Having a bad day, Loops?? ...been running around in circles since Thursday...having bad days... I don't think too many tourist agents speak other languages in Oz. One I used spoke Japanese - but no-one spoke Chinese or European languages. We figure if you got yourself here - you should have the ability to converse with us - nothing ethnocentric about us!! umm, LE, I'm talking about non English-as-the-native-language countries...and after all, English is a world language... Hey, loops, get your FAO dude to handle it, maybe. I know you are on a course, but they should be able to deal with it, yes? And have a beer, calm down, and try to get some more of that bloody mary mix, will ya? For you? NEVAH!! You drank guzzled the last bottle down so fast I only had one Bloody Mary out of it...next one's all mine, pal!! FAO? Fat Anal Orifice...?
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Post by Mr Nobody on May 31, 2006 15:48:30 GMT 7
Foreign Animal Organizer - the dude who's job it is to handle this guff. (Foriegn affairs officer, actually). The school you are doing your course in, BOland whatever, should be able to help you. I think it is their job to, if you are paying them and if you are going to work for them. Ask Raoul next time you see him.
Well, get two bottles. One for me, one for you. I'll even get my own vodka.
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Loops
Barfly
Raoul, after a day reading the garbage we dump on his forum...
Posts: 389
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Post by Loops on Jun 1, 2006 2:00:21 GMT 7
I am happy to say that step one of my Visa rollercoaster ride has been completed.
Yesterday I went to the Suzhou Tourist Information Office and asked the cute little chickee where the police station was and was answered with the infamous thousand yard stare...then I asked her another question and once more recieved the stare. My third and final question was: Do you even speak English, and true to form the stare was the answer... The girl who was a cutie when I walked in there suddenly changed into a monkey, right before my eyes...So I figured I'll go into the Dong Wu and ask there, hell it can't be any worse...I go in to the hotel and I was instantly greeted by two smiling hotties, one of which asked me if she could be of any help. I asked her where the visa office is and she didn't even think about it and wrote it down and handed me the paper. I looked at the paper and told her I can't read Chinese and she replied: "The taxi driver can." She instantly was even hotter than when I first walked in... So, anyways, I got in a cab and off I went to the Suzhou Administrative Service Center, the cabbie got me there and even offered to wait! I spent 87 on taxis that day.. Fast forward to today, I get in a cab and show the driver the same paper and I ended up nowhere near where I was the day before...I spent 91 on cabs...
Backwards assed mofoz...I had to go to my area's PSB station and was told I have the wrong papers(these papers where given to me by some gov't guy) I was at the PSB bureau and The guy sent me back to the hotel because I needed to write an application for visa approval or whatevuh...when I returned with everything he said I needed...he said l am still missing something and that I would need to go back to the hotel...I was on the verge of strangling 'ole monkeyboy... but the monkey redeemed himself by saying that he will just pretend that I have all the necessary documents and he stamped the necessary papers... So I hopped into a cab and I was at the Administrative Center again and the whole thing took about took 10 mins...
Had I had this information in first place I would have been done with this last week...
I am happy that step one is done, now all I have to do is travel to Shanghai and get my six month visa sorted...
In the end it worked out and all the money I had to bring was seen but not counted...all the taxis rides I wasted money on: useless except for 3 rides...
Bah,
dumb as poo, country bumpkins....
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Post by George61 on Jun 1, 2006 2:45:44 GMT 7
One of the delights of Suzhou!!
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Post by Raoul Duke on Jun 1, 2006 2:53:30 GMT 7
Poor Loops has been through the mill, even by Chinese visa standards. I've tried to help him as I can but he's ventured onto a lot of ground that is new to me, too. I'm also up to my own ass in alligators and not always easy to get on a phone.
I agree that Boland should be doing a bit more. They've offered some help but not really enough. And their own status seems to be putting folks like Loops into an awkward position. I'm still basically positive about Boland, but I'm a little disappointed in them here.
One thing I have learned from this: differences between cities can be vast when it comes to visa rules. Suzhou and, say, Shanghai, are like night and day...
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