Hellfire for all eternity

[Jollyjunklass]

Like I said in another thread, I don't disrespect people's wishes. I don't even smoke in my own house when guests come. Well, guests who dislike smoke. I am not defending smoking, in any form, but I am defending my right to my own choose, without the flack.

There is a lot of pollution in this world from motor vehicles, but I don't see all the non-smokers biking everywhere, or even car pooling, for that matter.

Just like there are millions of other drug related deaths, including alcoholism. Most of the prison population is in there for alcohol or drug related crimes, and we sure seem to fork out a lot of money for this.

I realize that smoking is a dreadful habit, with all sorts of consequences, but it doesn't mean other people have a right to shove it in your face, as they see fit. And I don't mean you Ruth, your comment was minor, compared to some of the abuse that's tossed around.

[Hamish]

millana said:

realize that smoking is a dreadful habit, with all sorts of consequences, but it doesn't mean other people have a right to shove it in your face, as they see fit.

This is exactly the mischaracterization that bothers me most.

It is my view that SMOKERS are the ones who are shoving their habit in my face. When I complain, I am not shoving anything in their face beyond my legitimate right to not have their unfortunate addiction impact the health of my family and myself. Smokers have no RIGHT to inflict their smell, debris, and carcinogenic discharge on others in any set of circumstances. Now that we KNOW that their addiction impacts other people, their actions should be strictly limited, even eradicated from any place where non-smokers wish to be. People with tuberculosis must be placed where they don’t affect other’s health. If smokers can’t control their discharges, IMHO they must be placed under some involuntary restraint.

[gengrant]

But Hamish, if we follow this logic to ONE of it's possible conclusions, I would have to tell ugly people to cover their faces because they are causing me discomfort and suffering by having to look at them...if I don't like seeing them, I leave...

Television that is offensive is not regulated the way smokers are...they simply say if you don't like it, turn the channel or read a book...

I don't like cigarette smoke any more than you do, but if a person is in a place that is 1) Outdoors, 2) Allows smoking (as in a restaurant or bar), or 3) owned by the smoker (as in their apartment, home, or auto), then I don't feel that it is my place to tell them to NOT smoke...I simply choose to stay or go depending on my mood...if I stay, then I suffer with the secondhand smoke...if I go, then I find a place that doesn't have smoking...

Do I like it? NO! Do I have the right to tell them to not smoke? NO! Am I ranting a little? MAYBE! Will I shut up now? YES!

[Hamish]

tall said:

But Hamish, if we follow this logic to ONE of it's possible conclusions, I would have to tell ugly people to cover their faces because they are causing me discomfort and suffering by having to look at them...if I don't like seeing them, I leave...

Television that is offensive is not regulated the way smokers are...they simply say if you don't like it, turn the channel or read a book...

I believe one way to express the logic of my case is as follows.

1. A person has the right to defend against those factors that damage their health and/or threaten their lives.
2. Smokers engage in behavior that damages the health of others and threatens their lives
3. Therefore non-smokers have the right to defend against smoker’s behavior.


• Ugly people have not been demonstrated to damage other people, or threaten their health, by virtue of their appearance alone.
• Therefore people have no right to limit the behavior of ugly people.
• TV is almost completely a voluntary activity. One can avoid it without difficulty. Exposure to TV in other than voluntary circumstances causes irritation, boredom, and disgust (among other things) but is no threat to life or physical health.

Why would you “shut up?”

This is a proper activity for the forum. You have every right to jab at me. I’ll jab back.

[gengrant]

Ugly people have not been demonstrated to damage other people, or threaten their health, by virtue of their appearance alone.

not true...some ugly people have caused me to just about hurl...and when I see two ugly people together and they have a child with them and I start thinking that those two ugly persons have mated...I really do hurl...that is damaging both physically and psychologically!

watching TV is a voluntary action

and I would then argue that hanging out in a place where people could potentially smoke is a voluntary action also...

this affects me personally because my mother is dying of cancer due to her smoking for 40+ years...

but although smoking does increase one's chance of cancer, it is not necessarily the only link...some who smoke for decades never get the disease...

standing on a street corner in just about any major city breathing in automobile (or bus) exhaust is most likely going to cause some problems too, but should we start telling people they can't drive because they are causing cancer in those who choose to walk around town? Being out on the street is a voluntary action, right? But that car infringes on my health by polluting the air I try to breath.

I don't know the answer...it's just a matter of opinion really...

[Hamish]

tall said:

I would then argue that hanging out in a place where people could potentially smoke is a voluntary action also...

Yes. But I have a right to "hang out" wherever it is permitted by law. Smokers have no right to bother me while I am doing so.

I agree to the provision of places where smokers can do their thing if smokers are prepared to pay to provide them, and are prevented from taking their children inside. As an airline pilot I was repeatedly dismayed and disgusted to see smokers taking their young children and babies into "Smoking Lounges" wherein the haze was so heavy that seeing, let alone breathing, was impaired.

[Lotus Eater]

I expect MY government to regulate carcinogens - from industry or elsewhere. I do NOT want to live next to a factory spewing toxic fumes. I do expect protection from nuclear waste, I want government to regulate fumes from cars and buses. I want clean water and clean air. I am happy to support (via taxes and protests) environmental measures that will protect my, and my childrens health.

I live in China - do I expect this? - no. Not for another 20 years. So my tolerance levels have changed. I am now not considering what goes into my lungs, because here - there is zero mechanism for making a difference in any of these areas.

I was not happy watching either of my parents with emphysema. From that experience - no one in my family smokes. I am in no way telling anyone what they should or should not do - but it's NOT a nice way to die. There are lots quicker and easier ways to do it.

I do harrass my students when I see them smoking (in the friendliest way) , hoping that somehow, even if my English classes don't work, I can save them this particular form of pain. Then I will have done some good. BUT this is not the only thing I harass them about - if the topic comes up I make damned sure they know about condoms as well!!

[gengrant]

and are prevented from taking their children inside.

Hammy, that I CAN agree with you on this...as an adult, I can decide for myself whether I want to breath in shs, but dragging a kid into that is not kosher...which is also why I despise parents who smoke around their kids - my mother smoked around me and my 3 brothers when we were growing up, and even took us to places where smokers congregated (bowling alleys, etc) where we were literally engulfed in shs...had no choice to leave...of course we could go play outside if we were at home...but in the middle of a Michigan winter, that was NOT MUCH FUN!

but as far as your other arguments, I still have to say that it is a matter of my choosing to be there or not...if it's a place that allows smoking, then I can decide to not go...if it's a public place where smoking is normally accepted, then I don't have the right to impose my will...

now, in cases where signs have been posted saying "no smoking" such as in an elevator, and someone lights up, I am very vocal and rant and rave until they put out the offensive "butt." BTW, is there any question as to why they call it a cigarette "butt?"

I make the same argument for cursing...it is offensive (in most instances) to me, but I don't tell others NOT to curse if we are in a public place...if children are around, I might say something, and last week while I was in church, I REALLY spoke up when the Widow Wilson let loose, but in most cases I simply decide whether to hang around that person or to leave...

so goes the rant...

[Hamish]

tall said:

but as far as your other arguments, I still have to say that it is a matter of my choosing to be there or not...if it's a place that allows smoking, then I can decide to not go...if it's a public place where smoking is normally accepted, then I don't have the right to impose my will...

So, I guess if I were to position myself in a public place and indiscriminately discharge a weapon that was capable of killing people around me in a small number of cases, but most people were not killed, it would be my right to do so and you would not have any right to “impose your will” via laws and regulations to control me? What percentage of those in my vicinity would I have to kill or maim before it would be appropriate for my activity to be criminalized?

For the life of me, I don’t see how swearing can be part of this discussion. Swearing is vibration in the air onto which one places an interpretation and by which one may decide to be offended. There is no demonstrable biological harm that is the product of the profanity beyond that which one’s, entirely voluntary, reaction creates with one’s self.

I have never understood how one person's particular superstition creates a right for them to control the thoughts or speech of other people.

If you believe in God, don’t use its name in vain.

I don’t, so I’ll act, and express myself, accordingly.

[Jollyjunklass]

"Now that we KNOW that their addiction impacts other people, their actions should be strictly limited, even eradicated from any place where non-smokers wish to be. People with tuberculosis must be placed where they don’t affect other’s health. If smokers can’t control their discharges, IMHO they must be placed under some involuntary restraint"

Sorry , but, I haven't figured out the quote thing yet.

I hope when you make this statement, you are referring to half the population. I guess, according to you, we'd have a pretty locked down society. ALL ADDICTION impacts other people, and a lot of them in more detrimental ways then smoking.

In a perfect world Hamish you may get your wish, I am sure you would be much happier here in Canada, where the air is clean and all indoor areas are smoke free. A move may be in order. I hope you have never been the owner of a vehicle, because if you have, I may be able to label you a hypocrite.

The bottom line is, smoking is not illegal and never will be, because the government makes too much money off of us suckers. You should be grateful we are paying your taxes, lets the non smoker off the hook a bit.

Secondly, because smoking is not illegal you have absolutely no right to get in my face, nor, do I in yours. I believe that's harassment. There is a lot I don't like in this world, but hey, if I don't like it I avoid, it's just not my business, nor is it my right to tell other peeps how to live their lives.

You have been ignoring the fact that a million other people in this world do things that aren't to healthy for the environment , prostitution for one and the spread of HIV, had to add that in there. You seem to think that's all fine and dandy. I don't though. It's risking my life. Life is a risk, you cannot expect everyone one to behave the way you want them to.

I do not smoke where it is illegal, which is practically everywhere in my country, they got their wish, now leave me to mine. You are in one big polluted area there, with one of the highest number of smokers per capita, why do you stay, you're always welcome to come to Canada where the indoor air is oh so fresh and nice. Just stay away from the grills at the greasy spoons and you'll do just fine.

BTW, , which one is the quote do hicky, when I pass my mouse over the grey area it doesn't work.

[Jollyjunklass]

LOL, Now Hamish would you kindly get your ass out of my face.

[Jollyjunklass]

Hey, speaking of smoking, I just had a really scary thought. I guess there is no smoking allowed on airplanes anymore, is there? Are there any airlines that allow smoking. If not, how many hours do you have to go without?

[George61]

If not, how many hours do you have to go without?

Ha!....Right from check-in till you get out of the airport at the other end. Depends on how early you check in, how fast your plane is, how long the unforseen delay is, how long it takes to unload all your bags at the other end, the snoopiness of Customs and Immigration officials.
How long is a piece of string??

[Jollyjunklass]

Yikes that is very scary, I'll have to beg my doctor for some type of knock out drug. Is there no airline that allows smoking.

[Ruth]

Millana, I'm sorry if I offended you. I never meant to do so. Save for two exceptions, I don't have anything against smokers. The two exceptions have been mentioned above: 1. The money grubbing people who sue tobacco companies. GG said it well. People in their 50s might have a legitimate complaint about being mislead, but folks as old as I am (and I'm getting up there) have heard about the damage smoking can do since they were very young. If you choose to start smoking, your choice. Don't blame those who make and sell the things. It's like blaming the gun manufacturers when people get shot. America is sue-crazy and I think it's terrible. 2. Ignorant smokers who light up where it is clearly marked not to do so. Hamish described those folks.

You aren't in either of those categories. The smokers I associate with are very respectful of the air I breathe. One step-daughter is fastidious about not even leaving her butts on the ground. I appreciate that.

You are quite right about the other health issues due to other people's vices. I'm overweight, don't exercise enough and have high cholesterol. Most of those could be overcome if I would have enough willpower. I am weaker than a smoker because there isn't a physical addiction as well. Lots of people like me take advantage of socialized health care for their illnesses caused by their excesses.

Like Lotus, my expectations have changed since coming to China. Drastically. People smoke in stores, hospitals, the offices at school - everywhere. I avoid what I can and tolerate the rest. My choice to live here.

[Ruth]

Millana, I think you are going to be uncomfortable getting here. George is right, although some airports do have smokers' lounges. I don't think there are any airlines that allow smoking any more. Direct flight from TO to Beijing is 13+ hours (and the most expensive way to go). Add three more onto that for the check-in time in the smoke-free airport. I've never looked for smoker's lounges at the Toronto airport, but I'll keep my eyes open and report back to you.

Would a nicotine patch help you survive the flight? There are others who cope with this problem. I'm really not the one to advise. Perhaps your doctor can be of some help.

[Ruth]

[quote author=connell board=living thread=1118500587 post=1118500587][/quote]

That's why I said China has a huge looming problem.

Even in China's medical community, 60 per cent of male doctors are smokers. Few are aware of the studies forecasting that cigarettes will soon be responsible for one-third of all premature deaths among Chinese men.

How can they not be aware with all of the information out there. Talk about having blinders on. Hamish, teach them how to use Google. Surely some of those studies have been translated into Chinese.

Children can easily buy cigarettes at Chinese shops, despite an official ban on sales to those under the age of 18. ¡°Shop owners never refuse to sell us cigarettes,¡± said one 16-year-old boy who was smoking as he played pool near a Guizhou school this week. ¡°They only care about money.¡±

This is where I get angry. For people who are already smoking, I think quitting is a good thing, if you can, but it really isn't my business. And I do understand that it can be a very difficult thing for some people to do. But if there is a law in place, presumably to protect the young and innocent from making decisions that WILL affect the rest of their lives, why isn't it enforced? Not that laws like that have made much of a difference to teens smoking in Canada and the US. But we should be letting the kids know what they are getting into. Somehow. Although my kids were educated about it, even nagged about it, and they both smoked as teens.

The student's uncle, who had smoked for 30 years, died of lung cancer in February. To spare his feelings, his family had never told him the truth about his illness.

I hope the kids were paying attention and made the connection.

[Jollyjunklass]

Ruth, honestly here, you didn't offend me at all. Like I said your comment was minor. And I don't blame you for disliking smoking one bit. I also think the Chinese government's comments, with respect to smoking were ridiculous. My son doesn't smoke , maybe because since he has been old enough to comprehend, I have incessantly nagged him about the dangers of smoking. So, in this aspect I hear everyone loud and clear.

I don't want to sound like I justify smoking, because there is no sane reason for smoking. But, one has to understand, well in this country anyway, that people can start to get under your skin. Ever since the massive no smoking laws came into effect over here, non-smokers think they have a right to crap all over you, and they do. I have, literally, got into arguments, a little less polite than this one, with people on the street who think they have the right to tell me to butt (that's for you GG) out in the open air. Usually in mall parking lots as they are walking to their fumy vehicles. I am respectful and I live up to my end of the countries rules and regulations, therefore , other people need to do the same. And verbally accosting someone, just because they think they can, is not my idea of respectable behavior.

Like I mentioned earlier, take them off the market completely, that will make me happier than a duck pig in poo.

No worries here Ruth, to know me is to love me ;D, if you knew me you would know that I don't take offense to any of this. I just need to stand up for my and other people's, nothing more. I guess I can get a little feisty when doing so. It is my nature. I'm sure you have that one figured out.

I would never be upset with a person for expressing their views, people's differences are what make the world go around and around and around

[Jollyjunklass]

And your darn right I'm going to be uncomfortable going there, the thought never crossed my mind until last night. I have a hard time making it at the theatre for 2 hours, never mind getting to China on a nerve wracking airplane flight.

I can see it now, Millana gets thrown out of plane, caught smoking in bathroom stall.

[Jollyjunklass]

Well at least we don't post pad or pad post, whatever one calls it.

[Hamish]

millana said:

And your darn right I'm going to be uncomfortable going there, the thought never crossed my mind until last night. I have a hard time making it at the theatre for 2 hours, never mind getting to China on a nerve wracking airplane flight.

I can see it now, Millana gets thrown out of plane, caught smoking in bathroom stall.

As you may know, I am a retired airline pilot. I can tell you that flight crewmembers carry handcuffs and other restraints for just such possibilities and have had to use them on people who could not restrain themselves from smoking, or their reactions when not permitted to do so.

People who try to smoke in a lavatory will discover how quickly a trained cabin crew can get into the compartment, and how seriously the offense is regarded to be by federal authorities.

I made an emergency decent into an air force base when smoke alarms went off in my aircraft. The only thing that saved the poor lady who had been in the lavatory was the fact that no smoking materials were found in the bathroom or on her person after a COMPLETE search.

Consult a physician before you fly.

[Jollyjunklass]

LOL, Thanks Hamish,

And no worries here, I won't be smoking incognito, I will try to ask my Doc for a couple of sleeping pills or something.

[gengrant]

So, I guess if I were to position myself in a public place and indiscriminately discharge a weapon that was capable of killing people around me in a small number of cases, but most people were not killed, it would be my right to do so and you would not have any right to “impose your will” via laws and regulations to control me? What percentage of those in my vicinity would I have to kill or maim before it would be appropriate for my activity to be criminalized?

Hamish, Hamish, Hamish...(shaking my head back and forth)

The last time I checked, it was not legal ANYWHERE to go around waving a gun in public...and I certainly don't think restaurants have "gun" sections...this is not even a valid argument...
[glow=red,2,300](although I have heard that Raoul's allows them on the second level!)[/glow]

I was simply stating that cigarette smoking and auto exhaust have *some* of the same toxins in them, but we don't tell people they can't drive around. Again, I can choose whether to be around it or not...or I can buy a cute little SARS mask and wear it out in public...

[Hamish]

Look more closely at what you are quoting from me. I never mentioned a gun.

[Nate M]

Smoking isn't as free a choice as you want to make it out to be. Perhaps starting is, but stopping isn't. Even then, the starting usually begins at younger ages then we generally grant people the power to "make their own choices". I've known dozens of people who "wanted to quit", but couldn't because they were physically addicted. Addiciton is acting as a coercive force in these situations, and you can't by definition make a free and clear decision when you're under the influence of a coercive force.