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Post by burlives on Jul 21, 2005 8:49:44 GMT 7
More women are graduating from universities and moving into mainstream and upper level employment.
Will the aggressive Chinese drinking culture continue?
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Post by Dr. Gonzo on Jul 21, 2005 9:58:56 GMT 7
Yes. Men will never give up the right to have long, boozy, public or shareholder funded lunches, and all power to them.
If women attempt to match or emulate this culture, they will end up under the table even before those cutsie little slices of beef hit the top of that same table!
Black Buicks, Mou Tai, Cigarettes, Shiny Suits, Crew Cuts, LOUD mobile phone conversations!
And then a piss in the carpark before lurching back into the Buick.
China: a male paradise.
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Post by burlives on Jul 21, 2005 11:29:54 GMT 7
The rosy-eyed view of China past has it that generosity and wealth are displayed by a big meal and a good drunk, and hospitality demands urging more on your guest, and while modern China was created out of a violent levelling of society it appears that these forms of culture have survived and are now in the hands of those who have sought and gained advantage from what might be called the democratisation of the means of getting rich. As in all societies of modern change, everything tends toward the middle -- the aristocratic forms are co-opted by the nouvea riche and the peasants are gentrified.
In other words, barely literate thugs with money and position demonstrate power relationships by providing themselves and their subordinates with alcohol, for their own enjoyment and their subordinates obedience.
But the change that creates middle class "leaders" also educates and employs young women.
It seems axiomatic that they will be agents of change just by virtue of being younger and smarter with a different temperament, and finding themselves too often in uncomfortable situations.
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Post by con's fly is open on Jul 21, 2005 11:30:13 GMT 7
Good question, Burl: I'd guess they're'll be a compromise somewhere in the middle, although since the womenfolk will be outnumbered at first, they'll have to adapt more than the boys do.
I've seen some women give a public toast, down a glass of beer, discreetly switch to tea or Sprite, then make a huge yucky face afterward, if forced to down another. The men, impressed by her good sportsmanship, generally lay off.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Jul 21, 2005 21:49:37 GMT 7
One dinner I was at the bosses were telling the (young, female) interpreter that she had to learn to drink and smoke if she wanted to be in the business world.
Australia had a great tradition of long boozy 'business' lunches, but then gov't stopped the tax break for them (entertainment expenses!) and the lunches dropped drastically. Restaurant onwers went broke, complained like hell, but the culture changed nevertheless.
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Post by con's fly is open on Jul 22, 2005 10:53:51 GMT 7
I taught the grads Pet Peeve today, gave mine as people who cut in line, then asked each of them. One macho-looking guy said his pet peeve was being socially forced to drink, even though he hates it. We discussed the Ganbei culture- they seem to all resent it, even the ones who look forward to drinking. I think I'll talk more about that in their last class on Tuesday. I really pity a Chinese alcoholic: how are they supposed to stay sober? EDIT: So, Burl, I'm going to change my answer to a firmer one: yes, the current custom is doomed. Perhaps in the old days, a piss-up for business purposes provided the excuse for the only fun they had in their whole week. But now it's unnecessary, and the young folks seem to resent it; women in particular feel trapped; and businessmen are starting to resent having to get poofaced two or even three times a week just to maintain enough guanxi to do their job. Drinking customs will westernize. So sayeth soothsayer Con  |
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Post by burlives on Jul 22, 2005 12:55:34 GMT 7
So what happens when people start speaking up?
"Leaders" are still sucking up significantly more power than their putative role would entail by making business run on a top-down model. The old goats at the top still demand displays of obedience.
So what happens in western companies when the employee tells off the boss?
I may sound disgenuous asking, but I've never worked in a company so I don't know.
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Post by Mr Nobody on Jul 22, 2005 15:04:00 GMT 7
Interesting question. I wonder what the concensus will be.
In my limted experience: Depends. I have told bosses where to go and what to do when they got there. Also told them how to fix things, occassionally politely.
Bu then, this is Australia, and I understand things aren't so laid back in USAnia.
Since I have never cared whether I got sacked or not, and was always quite good at my job, I guess this makes a difference.
I havent been sacked since I was 15, working a summer job as a shop boy, when the new school year was about to start and I didn't want to go back to school. I suspect a parents hand in it to this day.
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Post by con's fly is open on Jul 22, 2005 21:06:08 GMT 7
With any generation gap deal, the new gradually supplant the old, courtesy of the Grim Reaper. The pompous old farts will be marginalized and get wind that they're considered irrelevent dinosaurs, anachronisms. As they propose yet another ganbei, and the younger folks react with politelness but no enthusiasm, the silverbacks will notice eyes rolling.
And believe me, it will bother them.
What will this mean in the more important arena of political reform? I have no idea.
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Post by Hamish on Jul 22, 2005 23:52:54 GMT 7
The pompous old farts will be marginalized and get wind that they're considered irrelevent dinosaurs, anachronisms. And, that seems a good idea to you? It is, in specific cases. I'll think of some where it does not work so well in a moment here. What? |
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Post by Dr. Gonzo on Jul 23, 2005 3:01:31 GMT 7
Hamish, no-one thinks you're pompous!  |
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Post by con's fly is open on Jul 23, 2005 11:09:13 GMT 7
I don't speak of eternal truth here, Hamish, just this specific example of old-school "Commies" (awfully wealthy for socialists). Of course, I'm being an optimist, thinking the new blood won't be seduced by the perks of power, but at least in regard to drinking mores it should.
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Post by burlives on Jul 23, 2005 11:52:12 GMT 7
Of course, I'm being an optimist, thinking the new blood won't be seduced by the perks of power... There's the kicker. Without knowing for sure, I suppose modern Chinese business practice to be all about an aging new breed born out of Deng Xiao Ping reform. They're rubes who survived. The kids these days may or may not buy into the kinds of power payoffs they offer, but what alternatives are there to be seen, especially when every day includes a list of common necessities you are competing with other uncaring people for? The political world is at least 30 years older than that and has frighteningly larger payoffs for the players. |
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