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Post by Arlis on Sept 13, 2005 21:41:33 GMT 7
We all seem to know someone who knows a someone who can get one of these 1 Year Business Visas on the slide... So let's talk facts - a good expat friend is soon finding his Residence Permit about to expire and is in need of a ideally another year extension with permission to work. An offer from the grapevine has come through for someone to run down to HK for him and grab this new, beut visa for him at a cost of 2100 RMB flat. While I would think long and hard for a someone who knows a someone to do this, he is need of a decision soon. So what's the deal, is it too high (better he spend the money on a trip himself)? Is it too low (smells of a scam)? Or just plain too smelly to even touch. Some advice would be fantastic  - figures would be even better!  |
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Post by Raoul Duke on Sept 13, 2005 22:43:44 GMT 7
Slim is absolutely 1010% on the money. This is an amazingly bad idea. Don't go there.
Dealing with the fly-by-night visa agents is, IMHO, at best an act of terrible desperation. But letting someone bolt to HK with your passport and your money is just asking for trouble.
Lotus is also right, he saw in a burst of precognition. If you have the residence permit, the visa is superfluous...and the residence permit is issued in your city in China, not HK. So your friend is not even getting good advice from these weasels.
Note, though, that a residence permit can only be transferred or renewed with the cooperation of employers. If you transfer to another school, you need an official Release Letter from the old employer or your new school can't get the permit for you. THEN you have to go to HK and start over.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Sept 13, 2005 22:45:06 GMT 7
My latest experience (although I have a Z visa) is that if you have a residents permit then unless you plan to leave and re-enter the country you don't need to renew your visa.
Not certain if this is applicable in this case.
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Post by George61 on Sept 14, 2005 4:07:11 GMT 7
Agreee with Slim.....and Rayool...OK and Lotus, too
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Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 14, 2005 6:35:38 GMT 7
This isn't advice, but a question. Is this line of reasoning below correct?
I understood you could work on a business visa, but you can't teach at a school, only work for a company. The company is the one listed on the visa. If the place you work for is a training company and not a registered school, then the business visa covers it.
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Post by Stil on Sept 14, 2005 7:13:33 GMT 7
This isn't advice, but a question. Is this line of reasoning below correct? I understood you could work on a business visa, but you can't teach at a school, only work for a company. The company is the one listed on the visa. If the place you work for is a training company and not a registered school, then the business visa covers it. Yes, but as with many legal issues in China it can get a little murky. Basically, if the local PSB approve, almost anything can be done. Approval is often gained with wine, women and song. (or straight cash) You can have a company visa and be loaned to a registered school for training (you teach) The school pays the company and the company pays your salary, even though you might not really know about the work around. The school might not even have the right to hire foreigners to teach, but they are not. They are training you for the company which DOES have the right to hire you. With guanxi, most things are possible. Additionally, many private schools are recognized as both school and company. They have classes as a registered school but also (maybe) rent out classrooms as a training centre, sometimes renting to themselves. In this situation You can work there on a business visa even in their school section. In small cities especially, the FAO of the PSB has the final word on what is allowed in his district, so if a school has the right connections.... it's okie dokie |
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Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 14, 2005 7:37:07 GMT 7
Yep, that fits. Thanks.
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Post by Arlis on Sept 14, 2005 7:38:54 GMT 7
Thanks for all the advice. Most of it ran similar to what I told him so maybe this will nail the coffin on the "It's Too Smelly, Don't Do It" option. I can tell him again that a bunch of experts  bunch of drunks  an expat community has given it the "smells o' poo" mark of approval and for him to stay the hell away. The nitty gritty of it is that the 'someone who knows a someone' can 'hire' him as one of their company employees and give him a 1 year business visa without him needing to take any trips at all. His residence permit is going to expire at the end of this month but he needs a multiple entry as he's going back home for a bit before touching back here. He's not looking to join a school and wants to freelance in Beijing for a bit (he knows the risks) so he really just needs a 'legitimate' reason to be able to come back and stay until next year. So that's the whole deal - a question though, does anyone know how much a Business Visa costs? 6 months and 12 months. I mean the amount you pay to actually process one of these... PS. Thanks for the advice. Looking back on my first post, I think I stupidly worded it incorrectly as I failed to explain his whole situation. Stupid "Too Many Connections" wiped my first response however and I had to retype the whole thing again. Any cure for that? |
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Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 14, 2005 7:48:25 GMT 7
I think the back button gets your post back, so you can try again, but you have to be quick before it expires.
Well, it sounds like your friend is happy to be doing a shonky anyway. I was told about the same price as you were, but I had to go to HK and get it myself. Any agency does it, apparently. Or so I have been told.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Sept 14, 2005 12:30:17 GMT 7
Mr. N,
I'm the manager of a training company, I don't think the line is correct at all.
The real criterion is not school vs training company, but rather in the nature of the company you work for.
If your employer is a foreign company, and you are being paid directly from that country in a foreign currency, then a business visa is fully legal. Note that technically you must live in approved, company-provided housing if you are on a business visa.
If your employer is a Chinese company, even the Chinese branch/subsidiary/etc of a foreign company, and you are being paid in RMB then you MUST have a residence permit in order to be fully legal.
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Post by Stil on Sept 14, 2005 14:42:00 GMT 7
If your employer is a Chinese company, even the Chinese branch/subsidiary/etc of a foreign company, and you are being paid in RMB then you MUST have a residence permit in order to be fully legal. What if it's this situation but you are paid in dollars? (or at least in the accounting books it says dollars) Some provinces are a little behind others with regards to the new residence permits and are allowing teachers to work on 'F' visas (albeit a temporary situation). I believe Hebei is an example. I know quite a few people on 'F''s. Maybe they are all illegal. In Hunan I had renewal in February and I still have a green book but now they have switched over. It's all confusing as it seems to change place to place and day to day. I am happy enough only working for schools that can supply me with a 'Z' visa. |
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Post by Raoul Duke on Sept 14, 2005 17:36:44 GMT 7
Yeah, it IS confusing. And it changes all the time. A lot of people are running around China on Fs...many even on Ls (tourist visas)! Common, but illegal. Low probability of getting busted on it, but still uncomfortable to not be legal, and the penalties if you do get caught can be stiff. Just ask Officer Xiao!  A Chinese company's employees must have a residence permit..... |
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Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 14, 2005 22:08:19 GMT 7
Um I read somewhere that if you do work for a company you have to live in a hotel or something, and can't live in a flat. But I can't recall if that was real information or some crap fed somewhere to me.
Ok, raoul, I will bow to your greater wisdom in this matter. Everything I know is turned about each time anyway, since guanxi changes all the rules, and most of that happens where you don't see it.
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Post by con's fly is open on Sept 14, 2005 23:24:22 GMT 7
I actually worked last year on an "F" visa, I think: Foreign Expert. They couldn't squeeze it this year, though- things have tightened up.
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Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 15, 2005 1:01:48 GMT 7
No, F is business. FE is something else, a permit thing. Raoul!
I think Con is drunk, or at least should be.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Sept 15, 2005 1:08:20 GMT 7
The Foregin Expert thing is pretty useless for anything but (apparently) being allowed to convert additional monies into home currency and (supposedly) getting 20% discount on air travel during the major holidays.
Given my FAO has guanxi with local airlines and train people, the 20% is useless to me!
I managed to use it once at an airport to get through the first checkpoint, but not after that. They wanted the Residents permit or a passport from there on.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Sept 15, 2005 1:08:33 GMT 7
You're right, Mr. N...what I said but in a different way. Technically speaking, people without a residence permit can't get an apartment. You have to live in a hotel, or the premises of your company, or some other kind of controlled company housing. Needless to say, a lot of people break this rule.
However, be aware of the risks. Also be aware of how conspicuous we all really are here. Don't think you won't be noticed.
I'm still on my Shanghai residence permit and therefore hadn't registered with the local police. A couple weeks ago I started getting notes from a local officer, left with my ever-diligent apartment complex gate guard, advising me to register quickly or it would be "inconvenient". The guy was nice- he came to my home and registered me even with my Shanghai permit. He said that the higher-level police divisions did periodic scans of the neighborhoods to ensure compliance. He was just trying to save me- and himself- from trouble.
I was damn lucky. Im also making sure to get my residence permit converted ASAP.
Folks, if you ain't already legal, please take steps in that direction. We'll both sleep better if ya do.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Sept 15, 2005 1:15:07 GMT 7
Oops, there was another page!
The Foreign Expert Certificate indeed has little real use to you aside from letting you convert some money at a lower tax rate...and that only if you're silly enough to convert through a bank. However, it is a required and critical step towards getting a residence permit...the next major step after getting your visa.
I usually throw mine in a drawer and never see it again until renewal time.
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Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 15, 2005 1:18:13 GMT 7
Yeah. I got so much help around here it was positively embarrassing. I was living with me girlie, and the PSB etc was cool, then when I needed visa stuff, everyone ran around making sure everything was in order.
The girlie has a system in place that makes the mafia look like a mens club. Only they are all women. So people don't have to die unless they want to.
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LJ
Upstanding Citizen
One piston, 10,000 revs!
Posts: 63
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Post by LJ on Sept 15, 2005 15:21:34 GMT 7
Nobody and Stil seem to be echoing what I think in every way  Chinese law a grey area? Is G.W.Bush a monkey? ;D |
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Post by Raoul Duke on Sept 15, 2005 15:24:12 GMT 7
Then by all means follow their advice...
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LJ
Upstanding Citizen
One piston, 10,000 revs!
Posts: 63
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Post by LJ on Sept 15, 2005 15:35:23 GMT 7
But I'm not following their advice, it's what I have developed as my opinion over the last three years. Their opinion seconds mine, that's all.
Where I am it's what the local PSB says that goes.
Shanghai, Suzhou, Hangzhou are all highly wealthy and developed compared to where I am. 'Round here everyone is 'on the take', but they're friendly about it.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Sept 15, 2005 19:10:45 GMT 7
You're right, and thanks LJ. I'm getting grouchy in my old age. May be time for a hiatus.
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Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 15, 2005 19:17:11 GMT 7
You can get a support for that at the chemists.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Sept 15, 2005 19:20:09 GMT 7
Not the kind I need....
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