Trust in love and dating in China

[Meihou Wang]

In this place where the consensus cliches, "Talk is cheap," and "Seeing is believing," pop out of my local friends' chops faster than loogies out of a taxi driver's window when I ask about this surprising little piece of my ever-unfolding cultural misunderstanding of Chinese, I'd like to put the same question to all of you, especialy those with some experience dating and loving or loathing Chinese women of the East coast:

What is the way to trust and be trusted in love here in China?

I ask this question for two reasons:

1) I'm single (though not looking for romance just yet)

2) Per my Chinese friends (men and women), it seems that for one to have a second or third lover, even in the midst of an otherwise committed relationship or marriage, the "number 2 boyfriend/husband" is often accepted without great distress by the significant other.

For example, while out to dinner with one of my Chinese pals, I politely asked the young married man (and father of a three year-old son) a similar question, about fidelity in romantic relationships in China. I did not ask him about his wife. In fact, I carefuly avoided the possibility that he might construe my question as a personal enquiry. Still, my friend easily answered, "I know that my wife is in love with another man. It is acceptable. It is the pressure of love." I was shocked by his unguarded and nonchalant mention of what other and perhaps more monogomously inclined men would find devasting.

Clearly, generalizations are a dubious engagement in any scenario , but I'm very curious to hear some fellow Laowai opinions.

What do you think?

TIA to anyone willing to try to tackle this bloated loaded question.

Best,

~*Meihouwang*~

[Raoul Duke]

Great questions. No easy answers...

How to be trusted? For once, it helps to be poor. ;D And pretty adamant about settling long-term in China. This eliminates the golddiggers and visa hounds right off the bat.
After that it's like anywhere else...watch and evaluate...

Infidelity does seem to be a lot more standard in this truly and deeply non-monotheistic country (ie we don't share mores in some places...). It's more common among men, I think, but seen among women too.

Marriage in China seems to us to be more a business transaction than a romantic affair as we like to envision it. As long as the woman is getting financial support, and as long as the man is getting mother and housekeeping services, they often are pretty insensitive to what the other spouse does...especially if they are themselves free to pursue what they want. It doesn't necessarily mean they don't love each other, in their way...it's just a different view of the world.

It also doesn't mean that your Chinese amour will necessarily be unfaithful to you. I think as long as you give her the respect and attention she wants and needs and deserves, she will have no real reason to wander.

And, none of this is universal. Some can shrug off the dalliances of a spouse, but others will become rather schizoid with jealousy at even the slightest interaction of their spouse/significant other with the opposite sex. Chinese women are especially notorious for this.

In a relationship with a Chinese person, both sides will have to learn (usually the hard way) to accept different ways of doing things and seeing things. Trust me on this one...

[Meihou Wang]

Thanks for the frank answer.

~*Meihouwang*~

[Lotus Eater]

It seems to me that they Chinese fellas are pretty evenly split about faithfulness. Some are faithful to their spouses, others are happy to play. This includes married guys of all ages, and single guys with girlfriends.

But then I've also met plenty of western guys who are pretty happy to forget they are married or in relationships as well.

[Hamish]

And, from a oblique angle, sweeps in Kipling...

When the Himalayan peasant meets the he-bear in his pride,
He shouts to scare the monster, who will often turn aside.
But the she-bear thus accosted rends the peasant tooth and nail,
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

When Nag the basking cobra hears the careless foot of man,
He will sometimes wriggle sideways and avoid it if he can,
But his mate makes no such motion where she camps beside the trail.
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

When the early Jesuit fathers preached to Hurons and Choctaws,
They prayed to be delivered from the vengeance of the squaws.
'Twas the women, not the warriors, turned those stark enthusiasts pale.
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

Man's timid heart is bursting with the things he must not say,
For the Woman that God gave him isn't his to give away;
But when hunter meets with husband, each confirms the other's tale —
The female of the species is more deadly than the male.

Man, a bear in most relations — worm and savage otherwise —
Man propounds negotiations, Man accepts the compromise,
Very rarely will he squarely push the logic of a fact
To its ultimate conclusion in unmitigated act.

Fear, or foolishness, impels him, ere he lay the wicked low,
To concede some form of trial even to his fiercest foe.
Mirth obscene diverts his anger—Doubt and Pity oft perplex
Him in dealing with an issue—to the scandal of The Sex!

But the Woman that God gave him, every fibre of her frame
Proves her launched for one sole issue, armed and engined for the same;
And to serve that single issue, lest the generations fail,
The female of the species must be deadlier than the male.

She who faces Death by torture for each life beneath her breast
May not deal in doubt or pity—must not swerve for fact or jest.
These be purely male diversions—not in these her honour dwells.
She the Other Law we live by, is that Law and nothing else.

She can bring no more to living than the powers that make her great
As the Mother of the Infant and the Mistress of the Mate.
And when Babe and Man are lacking and she strides unclaimed to claim
Her right as femme (and baron), her equipment is the same.

She is wedded to convictions—in default of grosser ties;
Her contentions are her children, Heaven help him who denies!—
He will meet no suave discussion, but the instant, white-hot, wild,
Wakened female of the species warring as for spouse and child.

Unprovoked and awful charges—even so the she-bear fights,
Speech that drips, corrodes, and poisons—even so the cobra bites,
Scientific vivisection of one nerve till it is raw
And the victim writhes in anguish—like the Jesuit with the squaw!

So it comes that Man, the coward, when he gathers to confer
With his fellow-braves in council, dare not leave a place for her
Where, at war with Life and Conscience, he uplifts his erring hands
To some God of Abstract Justice—which no woman understands.

And Man knows it! Knows, moreover, that the Woman that God gave him
Must command but may not govern—shall enthrall but not enslave him.
And She knows, because She warns him, and Her instincts never fail,
That the Female of Her Species is more deadly than the Male.

[Mr Nobody]

I dunno. I've never kippled, while sweeping or otherwise. Kipling obviously had 'Issues' as evidenced by a great many of his works. And sometimes, like this one, his poems seem a little forced.

Back to topic:

Yeah, there is both situations all around.

Marriage was a business contract for many also in western civ historically, but love was also a fiction, I mean, factor, or at least supposed to be. Most wealthy people found lovers on the side of loveless marriages, right up throughout history probably until the prudishness of the Victorian era, but arguably that was just the face of it. Underneath, even then, there was a simmering cauldron of lust and infidelity, brewing and bubbling happily along with other less healthy pursuits such as incest and child molesting. Religion is normally considered the leavening in this particular bun, but I suspect otherwise, myself. I think it is more the romantic ideal somehow got attached to marriage, quite possibly via the novels and other literature of the late victorian era.

The main stated reason for fidelity in the woman was ensuring the baby is really the blood of the father for inheritance, and the main for the father seems to be disease.

Not sure what has changed.

An example: Here, in my city, there is a very attractive woman, I would guess married, who tries quite hard to capture western males for dalliance. I would also guess this isn't too hard, but I don't know and don't really care. She goes to every possible public English corner. Her English is excellent, she seems educated and intelligent, so I guess it is a lifestyle choice. Who knows?

To me, however, a relationship is trust. No trust, no relationship. Bye bye.

[Meihou Wang]

Indeed--No trust, no relationship.

And I am not a religious person--but I did grow up in the context and pretense of a monogamous and two-parent nuclear family. So the Freudian logic assertion that one seeks to recreate the home life--subconsciously using the parents as the primary source example--seems to fit my world-view quite accurately. I see my parents relationship as a healthy, successful, and committed marriage. I never saw Dad running around with the ladies, nor did Mom develop any romantically close relationships with other men. They're still together, about as vital in their 50's as I've ever seen them in the past.

But then again, I was an English major, so maybe it was all of that pooey Victorian lit that molded me' young heart and mind.

The question still is:

If we agree, "No trust, no relationship," then how do we find and develop that trust?--particularly if words are relatively meaningless?

BTW: I'm not really daft--I just ask daft questions. ;D

~*Mei Hou Wang*~

[Mr Nobody]

Behaviour.

[Stil]

Trust is built and it is said 'actions speak louder than words.'

It is also said that 'a picture is worth a thousand words', so don't get caught on camera!

[Hamish]

Trust about what?

My quotation from Kipling above was in reaction to what I saw as the suggestion that men are deceivers and, therefore, untrustworthy.

Sexual loyalty seems to me to be a simple minded criteria upon which to base a life long relationship. Damn, the same partner EVERY TIME gets very boring. IF one has a relationship in which trust is based on some other criteria, than sexual loyalty is not an deal breaking issue. Some trust their partner to tell good stories, learn new things, have an adventure, and come home with no diseases.

Works for lots of people.

Works in many societies.

[ilunga]

I had a strange (but good) experience today. I've never particualrly trusted Chinese girls (I'm talking late teens/early twenties variety). From experience they hide too much, and just tell you what you want to hear half the time. They are also generally not open about their true feelings, and will be evasive at every opportunity.

Today my gf (of a month) checked her e-mails in my presence. She works in a fairly big hotel so meets a lot of foreign tourists. There were two particular senders (foreign guys) whose messages were, let's just say, a bit more than that you would get from a friend. I was crashed on the sofa at the time, and caught a glance. She didn't open the new messages or reply. What followed was me giving her the silent treatment for a little while. I was waiting for her to tell me about it, because I knew that she knew that I knew. So in the end I said something. She was happy that I was a bit pissed off. She knew that I had seen through the reflection on the TV. She was open enough to show me the e-mails, and admitted that she was in the wrong. By this I mean, communicating in such a way with guys when she is, how to say, spoken for. Her reasoning was that she was not sure of my true feelings so at this stage of the relationship didn't really see the harm (it was just e-mail contact). I asked her how she would feel if she knew that I was communicating like that with other girls. We came to an understanding, and everything is great.

I've never been in a more trusting relationship. She's so much more open, honest and receptive than any other girl I've met in China. There are no hidden motives. She actually ENJOYS helping me with my boring jin du homework. She even asks (or tells) her boss for leave when I'm sick, so she can come round and tell me to drink more hot water and the like. Something she said she didn't even do when her mother was sick.

Anyway, I think relationships without trust are pointless. No ground-breaking statement there. The guys that call their girl up every night to check on where they are, what they're doing... does more harm than good. If she's out at the disco with her friends on a saturday night - fantastic. Nothing to distract me from my footy and 'work'.

[Hamish]

For myself, I can't get into the idea of having a relationship with one person make my life less free than it would be if I were not having a relationship at all. Why would I want to restrict my freedom? If I don't want limits placed on me, how can I presume to place limits on someone else whom I claim to love?

D H Lawrence's "Women In Love" is one of my favorite texts on this subject. I admire his simile of two stars orbiting each other, in a relationship, but still as separate stars. They are together because they want to be, and establish a “gravitational” association that leaves them independent and free, yet still profoundly involved with each other.

[Mr Nobody]

Freedom includes the duty of accepting consequences. However, your (or Lawrence's) metaphor is good. That's how I feel, but then, the gravity has a lot to do with trust. Trust partly means not having to check what the other person is doing.

[Lotus Eater]

Sorry if I sounded biased Hamish - I have only met a couple of women having affairs with married guys, but I have been hit on by guys in relationships often enough. So it was experience speaking - you are more likely to come across women in relationships looking for sidelines than I am. Women will generally keep their dodgy relationships fairly quiet, so it's not a big conversation topic in too many staff rooms. Which is not to say that it isn't happening.

What is trust? Very difficult question. I think it comes down to a knowledge of what people will do in given situations, and whether you can accept those actions as compatable with what you are looking for. So if you have a free and open relationship and you both know that each other is likely to say yes to an interesting offer and you are both happy with it - then that does not destroy trust. You may choose to build your relationship more on trusting the others compassion, sense of humour, ability to support you during bad days etc.

I would rather have a relationship built on knowing that my partner and I would support each others growth, respect achievements and care for children than an obsessive exclusivity, "you can't do this or that" feeling.

[hankuh]

but I have been hit on by guys in relationships often enough

are you including me?

[Hamish]

Hmm...

I get these mixed up.

Metaphor = a figure of speech in which an expression is used to refer to something that it does not literally denote in order to suggest a similarity
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Simile = a figure of speech that expresses a resemblance between things of different kinds (usually formed with `like' or `as')
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

They seem about the same. Huh?

I have no clear idea of how to explain the difference to a class here. Lucky for me they never ask. These terms are on a long list of things not having paid attention has cost me.

[Mr Nobody]

I say that metaphor is where people say something IS something else and simile is said to be LIKE something else, but I am inconsistent depending on when it feels like the other thing. As If is very borderline to me.

I wasn't trying to correct you, Hamish, I just wrote what felt right. I didn't notice that I wrote something differently from you. Since the bit you said said people are stars orbiting etc, I just wrote 'metaphor', not thinking.

[Hamish]

Correct m'kaying away!

I love it.

If you are ever wrong, I will not spare the rod.

Haven't seen it yet, but I AM ON YOUR CASE!

[Mr Nobody]

Sounds good to me. That's what friends are for: public humiliation and ridicule, all in good fun of course.

I HATE being wrong, so much so that when I am, I like being told, so I am't wrong anymore.

Of course, I like arguing, too, so on borderline or debatable stuff . . . .

[mich]

Could I just ask/say...

It's not only the Chinese who have affairs and their wives know about it. I have encounted a few women in my life, that know full well that their husbands have another women. BUT not to lose status, face or their financial support...blah, blah..they turn a blind eye to it.


is it the fact that the Chinese speak about it, and it's more sociably acceptable? Whereas in our culture, it's done, but not really talked about?

Just curious. I don't know too much about it from the Chinese angle...I have seen it in other groups, such as Italian, greeks, turkish, lebanese...

[Lotus Eater]

hankuh said:

but I have been hit on by guys in relationships often enough

are you including me?

If you can't remember I'm not telling!!

[solongtinik]

"trust and dating in china"

dating is fine with me...

...after a whirlwind-undefined relationship with a chinese guy, i promised myself not to get involved,at least seriously, with anyone from this race. i trusted him coz he seemed to be trusting...he's got no reason to use me- as i supposed...

until i finally realized that i've been actually blind of his "motive/s"...
i misinterpreted everything he showed me. our common friend (chinese) told me that chinese men expect to be understood thru their action...i guess the same in my country, it's just that their being sweet doesnt mean they like u too..even if something "amorous" happened between the two of u!

and oh! his "evilish" motives:
>> he wants to learn english
>> he wants to hang out at my flat

well, some lessons are learned the hard way...

[Lotus Eater]

Bad luck Solo, better luck next time. But I wouldn't dismiss 40+% of China's population so quickly. There are some nice guys out there. (I know a couple myself )

And of course you can have 'evilish' motives as well - he could have helped you learn Chinese and he could show you the real side of your city that other foreigners don't know.

We all have motives in a relationship - some of us want warmth, cuddling, hanging out in comfort, some of us want wild passionate love-making every 30 minutes, some of us want long serious talks and deeply supporting stuff, some of us want fun. At the beginning of the relationship you need to make certain it is not 'underfined' - that's where trouble happens. Figure out what you are looking for - and then make it clear to the person you are establishing the relationship with where you are at.

Human beings are so good at believing that other people understand them - when half the time we don't understand ourselves, so how can we possibly understand another person? The ONLY way for creating relationships that meet your needs is to be as up front and as direct about what you want, where you see yourself as possible.

[Mr Nobody]

Yeah, I think maybe it is a bit harsh to judge some 600,000,000 people by the actions of one or two. Not that I intend bothering to try, myself, of course.

[Non-Dave]

But we don't meet 600,000,000 of them - only a few and that's where our judgements come from. I reckon I've been very lucky with all my encounters here. So far my relationship experience in China has been a lot better than back at home. Maybe because here I got to start over from scratch, shed a lot of the baggage I carried with me at home and deal with completely different issues.

I think you hit the nail on the head, Lotus, as far as motives go. Be clear about your own, know what you want and take some risks...

After a one-year distance relationship up north my girlfriend has just left her family (with their blessing) and moved to Dongguan with me. Things are exciting and new for both of us at the moment and I'm beginning to understand the cost to her of doing this and the value she places on me and our relationship. Sobering stuff.

Now, if I can just learn form all my past experiences with women and not make the same mistakes as before...