Mimi
New Chum
Posts: 6
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Post by Mimi on Dec 8, 2006 10:18:52 GMT 7
I don't know my way around all the boards yet, I hope this was the right place to post.
I was looking at the Boland school (for tefl certification, not to work) in Suzhou, and was pretty confident that they were legit and knew which way was up. But, on their website, they have a page listing legal information, including a bit about visas. Next to the "F Visa" on their little chart, they have a notation that says "80% of the foreign teachers in China work on this visa."
From what I've heard, this is nowhere near legal. I know a visa only gets you into the country, but don't you need a Z visa to get a residency permit?
I mean, I know the school can't force me to work on an F visa, but the fact that they're condoning it and even seem to be setting up their students to expect to work illegally seems fishy to me.
Please enlighten me if you are able.
Mimi
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Post by Dajiang on Dec 8, 2006 11:01:01 GMT 7
Not a big problem really working on an F visa.
Some people do insist on having a Z, and if they'd give me one that would be great too, but F's do the trick just as well.
It's like traffic rules: they are there, and lots of stuff we see on an every-second-basis is also illegal, but noone cares about that, and nothing is done about it, and even cops participate in it.
Anyway, the school I work at now explained it like this: I am not a teacher working here, I'm a short-term guest doing cultural exchange, which is apparently different. Business visa are good enough for that. So it is somewhere near legal.
Anyway, it really is not going to matter. And if it would be a problem, schools would give you a Z-visa. They simply need foreign teachers, and cannot afford to lose them. So either way it'll be fine.
Oh and btw, I've actually done the Boland course in 2003. Had a great time there and learned a lot. If you got questions or something feel free to ask.
Seeya
Dajiang
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Post by joe on Dec 8, 2006 15:33:44 GMT 7
Anyway, the school I work at now explained it like this: I am not a teacher working here, I'm a short-term guest doing cultural exchange... And you're working without the appropriate visa. One technical fudge which some I know have liked is to arrange for a company letterheaded letter to be sent from outside of China to a China-based company, say, oh I don't know, some chain school or training center, with the letter outlining some vague consultancy work you will do for that company. This, say those who are pleased with the scheme, allows the company to legally invite you into China on an F visa. Your consultancy work will look a whole lot like teaching, but if you supply invoices for your consultations, well, you might reasonably be paid for being that consultant. Otherwise, work on an F visa is explicitly illegal. But, like they say, lots of people are doing it. The merit of a Z visa (or whatever approximation the new visa laws decree these days) is, technically, if someone invites you into China to work for them and can arrange for that visa, then they have (supposedly) met the government mandated standards set for the hosting and employment of foreign nationals. Plus, it's the only legal way to work in China. [edited] And, unless I'm mistaken, to legally rent an apartment you need residence papers, and one doesn't legally get these without a Z visa. I'm not completely sure about that because probably the bulk of the foreigners working in, oh, I don't know, lets say, Suzhou are renting on F visas with some kind of residence papers somehow in hand. |
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nolefan
Barfly
Quod me nutrit, me destruit!
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Post by nolefan on Dec 8, 2006 15:43:30 GMT 7
Anyway, the school I work at now explained it like this: I am not a teacher working here, I'm a short-term guest doing cultural exchange... And, unless I'm mistaken, to legally rent an apartment you need a Z visa. I'm not completely sure about that because probably the bulk of the foreigners working in, oh, I don't know, lets say, Suzhou are renting on F visas. bingo! nothing prohibits you from renting a flat in china even on a tourist visa. As far as the legality of working on an F visa, it is grey territory and it will stay that way until they find a better way to deal with the residence and employment permits. It's perfectly OK for 6 months or less... trouble is when it's for more than 6 months. |
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Post by joe on Dec 8, 2006 16:01:27 GMT 7
Nothing prevents you because you have made an illegal deal with the landlord. A legal deal involves the landlord notifying the PSB that you're there. And that needs residence papers.
I think.
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Post by Dajiang on Dec 8, 2006 16:03:05 GMT 7
right. im renting my own place, and started renting it on a tourist visa. was noooo problem, and didnt even have to give them cigarettes or buy em dinner. The cops know who i am and where i live and what i do. but they dont give a dumpling about me. (as long as i behave of course) Im pleased with the scheme.  and what you describe above is exactly what my state middle school does all the time with people here. I am working with the appropriate visa as they've explained it, and thats fine by me. So I guess it's not explicitly illegal, nor is it explicitly legal. I guess my point is that oftentimes in china the law doesnt really matter, unlike what we're used to back home, and i dont mind that. Im not afraid of the police knocking down my door and kicking me out of the country. No way thats realistically gonna happen. The school wont do that either. I actually dont think there is even the will to do something about this grey area, cuz it's kinda working here, and it's probably going to stay this way for a while time to come. |
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Post by joe on Dec 8, 2006 16:05:30 GMT 7
You're probably right.
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Crippler
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Beware the conspiracy!
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Post by Crippler on Dec 8, 2006 16:06:56 GMT 7
To rent in China you do not need a resident permit. You can legally rent an apartment with an L visa if you like for the term of your visa. You can also buy a house. The PSB can be notified of your living arrangements and as long as you are legally in the country, you can live in your own place.
You do, however, need to be legal!
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nolefan
Barfly
Quod me nutrit, me destruit!
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Post by nolefan on Dec 8, 2006 16:09:27 GMT 7
Nothing prevents you because you have made an illegal deal with the landlord. A legal deal involves the landlord notifying the PSB that you're there. And that needs residence papers. I think. nope! Sorry, joe. You're wrong on this one, buddy! My wife and I are both currently on F and we're fully registered with the psb and pay taxes and all. I have a friend living across the compound who's got a 6 month L and he is registered with the psb as well. |
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Post by Dajiang on Dec 8, 2006 16:12:07 GMT 7
oh about the residency, i dunno how it is in other places, but basically the PSB wanted to have a letter from school saying i was going to work there (which i was already doing at the time for some weeks), and also my landlord's permission. however, i didnt need to show my visa for the PSB residency registration.
So I got the letter and landlord's blessings and was registered. Now for the business visa i needed that PSB registration form and that same 'invitation' of the school.
i was just following regulations as told to me by the PSB, which to me seems perfectly legal.
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Post by joe on Dec 8, 2006 16:25:53 GMT 7
I rented once for a year on a Z visa with a valid residence permit. Legally a landlord must notify the PSB that you are renting the place. But after that, ya got me, now that I think about it I don't know if that residence permit was technically needed for the renting. A bunch of guys I knew where renting on F visas, so I guess it wasn't.
I'm still going to vote for a Z visa if you want to set yourself up right as an employed foreign national resident in China.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Dec 8, 2006 22:28:36 GMT 7
I'm having to retract my earlier statement here...
An F Visa IS OK while you're studying at Boland. However, it is most definitely NOT OK (legally) for holding a job with a Chinese company or organization.
The laws for renting an apartment are pretty murky. Everything I've ever seen suggests that you MUST have a residence permit in order to rent an apartment; other visas must stay in a hotel or company-provided housing. But these things do change.
Not knowing these things for sure anymore is unacceptable. I'll see what I can find out.
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Post by joe on Dec 9, 2006 10:30:50 GMT 7
english.gov.cn/2005-08/29/content_27366.htm"Foreigners who have not been issued residence certificate (i.e. holders of F, L, C or G type visas), and those who are under study or interim programs in China and the families of holders of Employment Visas shall not work in China. " Which is to say, explicitly illegal to work on an F visa. (But how many are busted for doing so? Heresay says not so many.) There is an "In special cases..." clause but it includes mention of going to the PSB and changing ones status. Apartments? Couldn't find anything, except the one sort of obvious thing that no one is mentioning residence permits when they talk about their apartments. Why do I feel dirty talking about this? Someone working under an F visa is not here for a long term. Employers know this and it's part of the employment culture of their workplace. Also an employer sponsoring work under an F visa is likely not legally capable of hiring a foreign national. They may do a halfway decent job of it, but commonsense suggests their contracts are not legal and therefore probably legally void. One laughable feature of my employment history is a stint served in a Web International training centre, one at the time not legally capable of employing foreigners, though they did, and do, extensively making use of F visas. I worked under a Z visa with valid residence papers because I already had them before I was enjoined to consult with large numbers of their students on matters of the english language, aka "employed," there. In my humble opinion, collateral to work on an F visa is shift work labour intended to generate burnout, there being a steady supply of gormless and unsteady replacements waiting to fill your void. This is the China experience you wish to have?
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Post by Raoul Duke on Dec 9, 2006 11:22:57 GMT 7
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Decurso
Barfly
Things you own end up owning you
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Post by Decurso on Dec 9, 2006 17:18:26 GMT 7
I have to agree with Raoul and Joe.Just because you can get away with working on a F visa doesn't mean it's a good idea.It is best to follow the letter of the law here.It greatly reduces your chances of some kind of catstrophe occuring.
I was picked up by the police a couple months ago because my school had never gone through the proper channels to ensure that I was legally able to work in that county...EVEN THOUGH I have a Z visa.Thankfully that mess is over,but the kicker was that a rival school phoned the police out of spite and malice.That's all it takes.One phone call from a cutthroat Chinese schoool owner to turn your whole life upside down.
I also knew a foreigner working on a F Visa who was deported for that reason.I don't know all the details but I believe the police took an interest in him because some of the locals objected to dating Chinese women.They couldn't deport him for that,but the visa was enough reason.
And Joe is right about the reason many schools only provide F visas.They CAN'T provide Z visas.Do you really want to work at a place like that?Accept no substitutes.
The China rulebook says cover your ass at all times.
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Mimi
New Chum
Posts: 6
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Post by Mimi on Dec 9, 2006 23:29:52 GMT 7
Wow, thanks for responding!  I think I'll e-mail Boland and ask them exactly what they're trying to say with the "80%" garbage. I guess because a BA isn't a prerequisite to their program, they know that not everyone will be able to find legal jobs. And trust me when I say I've been planning all along to find a legit school that can get me the Z, the FEC, the residence permit, everything. Getting deported from China isn't the kind of "adventure" I dig. |
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Post by The Canink on Dec 10, 2006 11:26:58 GMT 7
Otherwise, work on an F visa is explicitly illegal. But, like they say, lots of people are doing it. The merit of a Z visa (or whatever approximation the new visa laws decree these days) is, technically, if someone invites you into China to work for them and can arrange for that visa, then they have (supposedly) met the government mandated standards set for the hosting and employment of foreign nationals. Plus, it's the only legal way to work in China. There's another reason why schools like people coming in on tourist or business visas. Control. Most of them have enough 关系 with local authorities that they can get away with surreptitiously calling the cops on an F visa holder saying "I'm shocked! This person is working in the country illegally!" if they rock the boat too much at the school they're at. The biggest reason to insist on a Z? You're not at the mercy of the sociopaths who run your school (and make no mistake: they will be sociopaths). |
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Post by Raoul Duke on Dec 10, 2006 14:55:56 GMT 7
Amazing. The Canink and I arrived in China at almost exactly the same time (I am senior by about 5-6 weeks  ) and have arrived at a disturbingly similar mindset about the place.  |
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Post by Raoul Duke on Dec 10, 2006 14:57:49 GMT 7
PS: I strongly suspect that "80%" number was pulled out of somebody's ass.  |
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Post by The Canink on Dec 10, 2006 17:19:17 GMT 7
I arrived October 11, 2001. You arrived as the towers fell?  |
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Post by Raoul Duke on Dec 11, 2006 1:17:50 GMT 7
August 27 2001. I'd been here exactly 2 weeks when the towers fell. A surreal time indeed...
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Post by The Canink on Dec 11, 2006 12:08:29 GMT 7
Damn. Just... damn.  |
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Lager
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Posts: 1,081
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Post by Lager on Dec 15, 2006 3:19:32 GMT 7
I' d have the 2 of you beat (except I'm back home.) Arrived in ROK June 1. 911 I was buying milk on the way home and joine d Koreans gawking at the TV......
Was it on every channel in China?
As to the thread I would say most teachers close to HK border are on a F visa.....I would also guess if you got caught an F would be MUCH better than being on a straight tourist...
cheers
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and what you describe above is exactly what my state middle school does all the time with people here. I am working with the appropriate visa as they've explained it, and thats fine by me. So I guess it's not explicitly illegal, nor is it explicitly legal. 
