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Post by Nate M on Oct 6, 2004 8:12:23 GMT 7
Hello everyone,
My school is probably going to be recruiting a few new teachers for next semester, and I'm thinking about offering my services to bring in good teachers. I was recruited through an agency and I'm pretty sure I can convince my bosses that I'd do a better job because I'd do interviews, I have connections with my TEFL program, because I care about who gets hired more than an agency, and because I can probably do it cheaper.
Before I approach them with the offer, however, I'd like to get an idea of what a fair price to ask for is. I was under the impression that recruiters generally get 5-10k per head they bring in, but I'm not sure about that. I'd probably be willing to do it for less than that, but I want to get a ballpark figure of where to start negotiating. Any help would be appreciated.
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Post by George61 on Oct 6, 2004 8:18:10 GMT 7
Is this the Air Hostess school?? Hmmmmmmmm
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Post by Nate M on Oct 6, 2004 8:25:42 GMT 7
Down boy, down.  There are a couple other teachers who might be leaving at the semester due to family concerns. The Cabin Attendants are all mine. |
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Post by burlives on Oct 6, 2004 9:00:02 GMT 7
Long ago, I was recruited. The organisation, and I use the term loosely, that recruited me, which is to say, placed an ad on an Australian government website -- they were based in Melbourne --, did it more or less for cost, something like 500 yuan a head. They planned to become profitable as they grew in terms of connections and reputation. Then one time they charged my school 5000 for a hook up. After that the school stopped asking them for recruits. Then the husband and wife team that ran the organisation lost the husband to a long-standing illness and the wife decided to retire. Apparently the guy relied on Chinese medicine to manage his pain.
I'm not sure what the moral of that story is. The school in question somehow keeps getting warm bodies but they never advertise. The only time I've seen them do any online recruiting happened to be yesterday on a tiny esl website. I suppose if you want to do business with your school you have to offer more than a good service: you have to find a way to make friends with them. And that'll probably cost you. Money, time, sucking up, gifts, suppers, meetings.
On the other hand, you might just offer the service and say that you need 10k up-front. Start high. 15k maybe. Maybe negotiate. But always demand money up-front. The guys in Melbourne often ended up paying airfares for their recruits and waiting months for money from China.
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Post by Nate M on Oct 6, 2004 9:06:27 GMT 7
I don't think I'll have to worry about paying for airfares of recruits or anything like that. They school is pretty willing to take care of those sorts of things themselves. They've also been pretty upfront and honest when dealing with me, and from the sounds of it, the other teachers as well.
They might also have people lined up already, (they have relationships with airlines, Rolls Royce, Boeing, etc), but given the fact that I was recruited by just an ordinary recruiter who didn't do a whole lot other than post a job request on a website and forward my resume to the school, I figured maybe it would be something I could do.
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Post by burlives on Oct 6, 2004 9:20:07 GMT 7
Well, good luck then, grasshopper. It does seem like a decent business opportunity. If you still have all your hair after setting up a China review website, probably you can take the stress of finding teachers.
I propose to reiterate: in my not very humble opinion and certain as I am that lack of experience does not preclude me from offering my valuable advice, asking for too much money is not as big a mistake as asking for too little. You might even try for 20 thousand if you think you can offer up postgraduates (for prestige) with CELTAs (for actual ability).
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Post by Nate M on Oct 6, 2004 9:27:55 GMT 7
Well, I tracked down the website of the recruiter I came in through, (AIEF), and by glancing at one of their posts, it looks like they charged 1500 or 2000 RMB tp get me. www.uscampus.com.cn/eposter/teachers.htmlQuite a bit less than I had been expecting, but still a decent chunk of change. I could get myself one of those nice little electric scooters I've been drooling over.  If anyone can actually read what that poster says, (I can make out about 6 or 7 characters, but not too much more), and either confirm or correct what I just said, it would be appreciated. |
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Post by burlives on Oct 6, 2004 14:22:37 GMT 7
A friend had a look at the advertisment. The 1,500 and 2,000 figures are six-month membership fees for a service that allows schools to peruse recommended resumes. (Apparently foreigners can use it as well if they want to find out which schools are hiring.) There's no indication of any other charges.
Nate, did they introduce you and then let you deal for yourself or did you go through them until a deal was struck? If the latter, then one may assume some further money changed hands. If the former, then apparently there's no per-head charge.
Maybe 20,000 could be a little steep. Maybe a charge equal to one month of the proposed salary for quality candidates. Then again, why not aim high?
The teacher who looked over the ad pointed something out: if you are recruiting for a school and also working at that school and then your appointee does not behave as expected, you're screwed. I didn't think about that when I was helping my last school, mostly because I knew I wouldn't be there when the teacher hit the fan.
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Post by Nate M on Oct 6, 2004 15:41:52 GMT 7
Well, it was kind of "A little from column A, a little from column B". I continued to deal with them until I had signed a contract and sent it to them, but during that time I was free to talk to the school. Once the contract was signed I never heard from the recruiter again, and it was the people at my school who sent my airline tickets and the papers I needed for the visa application.
I realize that there would be problems with the school if the teacher ended up sucking donkey balls, (either figuratively or literally). Which is why I think I'd be an asset over a recruiter, because I'd actually give a damn about who was hired, and check up on them, instead of just sending them to the school and collecting my check. It's a risk for sure, but I think I can handle it.
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Post by MK on Oct 6, 2004 16:16:10 GMT 7
Yeah, I am pretty sure an approachable, honest, native speaking recruiter who actually works at the school would be able to catch a higher quality of teacher than average.
That's what my school has (a native speaking teacher recruiting), and most of the foreign teachers here are qualified AND decent human beings, despite fairly average pay and conditions.
After all, most Chinese recruiters simply send you a mass email along ther lines of: 'When U come China? Send me your documents, OK?'. I came here 'cos I knew I wouldn't get screwed too badly.
Word of caution though, recruiting seems to turn a lot of people into total lying scumbags who will promise the earth and never deliver, especially when term is starting next week and there still aren't enough warm laowai bodies on campus!
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Lager
SuperBarfly! 
Posts: 1,081
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Post by Lager on Oct 6, 2004 16:46:43 GMT 7
Don't know if this applies but in Korea agents get about 1 million Won which is the same as 2 weeks salary of a teacher. And even that is based on the teacher staying a year. 6 months you get half---less you get nothing.
My guess is they would get maybe 2000 -4000 RMB but I really don't know for sure. Roger might know. This could be more time-consuming than you think---people will play along and then back out at the last minute...On the other hand if you can find them maybe you could start a little sideline.
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proust
Upstanding Citizen
Posts: 84
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Post by proust on Oct 7, 2004 7:55:04 GMT 7
Nate, where are you? (The city would be sufficient.)
Thanx.
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Post by Nate M on Oct 7, 2004 7:59:11 GMT 7
Tianjin.
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Post by burlives on Oct 7, 2004 13:20:49 GMT 7
I just thought of a troublesome question: a foreign recruiter can evaluate, even demand documentation of, a CELTA or a postgraduate degree, and possibly even first-world work histories, but how should a foreign recruiter evaluate "experience teaching in China"?
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Post by Nate M on Oct 7, 2004 16:32:13 GMT 7
So, 13 replies now, (this one will be 14), and I still don't have a bloody clue how much to ask for. Anyone with any real, concrete ideas on how to figure this out?
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Post by MK on Oct 7, 2004 20:41:59 GMT 7
Well, try d'cafe, that's where all the mammonist mercenaries hang out...
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Post by con's fly is open on Oct 7, 2004 23:07:19 GMT 7
This is diabolical territory: I wish recruiters were folks like you, but they aren't. I can't get past the feeling that taking money to entice a foreigner to join is a slippery slope to hell.  Watch your ethics, brother: if you truly believe that yours is a school worth working for, and you keep in mind the kind of opportunity it represents, i.e. you are prepared to say "Dude, you're right for the job but the job's not right for you- aim higher!" then do it, and charge through the nose. I've now convinced two FT's to come here, and I take a bow for it- they've scored in coming here, just like I did. I take another bow for telling several other candidates that there are great gigs to be had in China, and this is a great school, but this just wasn't for them- here's what you should aim for. Take that same course, and you'll make a world a 0.00000002% better place.  |
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Post by Dr. Gonzo on Oct 8, 2004 3:46:05 GMT 7
The first time my school asked for help was when we had a "no show" a few days before term. If we'd found no-one, I'd have ended up with extra classes. So I ran a free ad. in "that's Shanghai", and amongst the inevitable raft of dead-set losers, found two that seemed the goods. The first one, Ken, interviewed well and was TESOL qualified, so we signed him on the spot. I didn't think of asking for a fee, but put it in the "Guanxi" bank.
Come mid-term term, they asked again; but this time they needed four. I asked for my semester bonus to be doubled if I was successful, which I was, using forum contacts only. So it cost me no more than a few hours on the computer, the phone, and sitting on interview panels[yes, we asked for interviews for those in-country: this benefits both parties].
To answer Nate's question, I ended up with 1000Y per recruit. Cheap? Yeah. Value for money? I think so.
Advertise early. Check forums for people who seem decent and are asking about jobs. Look for some formal ESL training and O/S experience. Schools get shafted by "teachers" at least as often as vice versa. Don't recruit for schools you have concerns about, or recruit people with the wrong agenda.
A recruiter with ethics! That's what we'd like to see.
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Post by Nate M on Oct 8, 2004 5:08:24 GMT 7
About becoming a heartless turd: I am not intending on doing this as any sort of full side-business. I am just planning on doing it for my own school, which I think despite it's quirks and relatively low pay, is a pretty decent place to work. I plan on being honest with teachers, both about the school and what I think of them. At a school where I work, I don't think I'd really want to do it any other way, as I'll still be here when they get here, and frankly don't want to be a Pariah or deal with them as colleagues.
I'll keep everyone's advice here in mind. Thanks for giving it.
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