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Post by Mr Nobody on Jun 14, 2006 21:57:13 GMT 7
Well, we have a conflict here. GTO says he didnt sign an agreement for Boland to collect from Shane for the outstanding debt, but Katie Boland says GTO did.
We also haven't established that this is at all legal or binding here, but I am willing to assume that it is unless someone has knowledge to the contrary. At the very least, it is a show of intent.
I do agree, however, that GTO needs to pay for the course whether he finishes or not. Like in any country, if you sign up for something, you pay for it, whether you pass or not, attend, or not, or anything else for that matter.
I think it is a sign of his good faith that he has in fact paid this much. It means that, perhaps, he has fulfilled much of the agreement.
Assuming all or any of the above is in fact true. There are so many contradictions, it is hard to tell.
As far as Shane; I am sure that GTO in fact has breeched the contract, by his own statement. It sounds like it. You agreed to certain things, and so did they. I think perhaps you do owe them, especially since you quit without notice.
Oh, and one more thing. It isn't just in Suzhou you might have problems with. This will probably have to be reported to the PSB due to the visa/contract matters, and thus becomes an immigration issue. I would seriously consider sorting it, because this matter can be very serious and result in not being permitted to be here in China at all, ever again. I have heard of people having this happen for less, (if Katie's version is true), and if Shane and/or Boland school wants to make an issue.
Of course, I have also heard of much worse being completely ignored entirely, too.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Jun 15, 2006 0:32:59 GMT 7
AJ, Boland is a TEFL training school, and at least in terms of program quality they seem to be a pretty good one...especially in comparison to some other certs floating around out there. We have other members who are Boland students or grads; perhaps they have an opinion here. Also, GTO lived in Yo'kraine before coming to China. Please pay attention. As for the payment arrangements, Boland says they have all the documents on file. It's right here in town...I wonder if the parties involved here would let me see the agreement in question? Might help settle this once and for all...
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Loops
Barfly
Raoul, after a day reading the garbage we dump on his forum...
Posts: 389
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Post by Loops on Jun 15, 2006 3:57:44 GMT 7
I am a trainee at The Boland School and I have found it to be exactly as advertised and I have found the staff to be more than happy to help me out with any problems I may have, be it school related or not. I had an incredibly frustrating time with my visa a couple of weeks back, but Katie told me all about what a pain it would be before I went ahead and did it on my own. I should have listened to her and used the Shanghai visa guy. Now I know. The staff is great and I seriously could not have done without Mr. Xi helping me out, the teachers putting up with my blank brain...great teachers who know what they're teaching. Yes, Boland does have a few kinks here and there but then again, what business/school doesn't? Yes, Boland has Shane come over and talk to us for a hour during our course. In no way are you obligated to work for them. Listen to what they have to say and file it under "no thanks" (or SMS Con and Raoul during it ). I most probably have driven Ivana and Katie mad by now with all my requests and questions and general ignorance about many things in China but hell, they are always ready to help me and rectify whatever seems amiss. I found their school on the net and when I compared it to other training schools out there I chose them because they responded to my emails quickly and gave me more info than I asked for. I also chose Suzhou because I was drawn to El Taco Grande and his forum of nutjobs. Since I am the first part-timer there(GTO bailed), Sinead, who sets the schedules, amongst a myriad of other things, often asks me if all's well and if I have any input that she can use to fine tune the scheduling. Actually, she called me in to her office today and asked me if I needed a part time job for money. I never said anything to anyone about just how strapped for cash I am but Sinead musta smelled it on me 'cause her timing was perfect. All in all, I cannot take GTOs side in this matter simply for the fact that if you're broke then don't come to China (as far as possible from USAnia, home) and start out already owing people a large amount. Don't screw around with other people's money. Don't bring worthless money to another country where it's even more worthless...jeez the Renminbi is pretty worthless on it's own... And for the love of Jeebus, read your contract and if it stinks don't sign it, and if you've signed well, respect it!! In as much as not paying for the second half of something because you leave, that's just not done. Just try getting back your YMCA membership fee after paying for the month and quitting two days in...(YMCA here could be replaced with any business). HELLO!!I am not taking Bolands side either, I am just telling y'all about my experience since all there is on this board is speculation by people who haven't attended and bashing by someone who has, partly. Take what you will from my post but I am happy with Boland thus far and I'm halfway through. ps: Y'all know what a straight shooter and vehement prick I can be about things, so y'all know this isn't a plug for Boland. ACJade: Read slowly...to fully comprehend. Thank you, darlin'.
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Post by acjade on Jun 15, 2006 5:04:34 GMT 7
Raoul thanks for answering my curiosity.
Until a few of the members signed on at Boland I'd never heard of the place and was curious as to what standard of training it offered in comparison to other ESL training institutions.
I didn't pick up GTO's previous stint in the Ukraine. My bad.
Loops...
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Post by George61 on Jun 15, 2006 5:21:23 GMT 7
"Con Descending a Staircase"....isn't that the name of a famous painting??
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Post by Mr Nobody on Jun 15, 2006 5:48:30 GMT 7
I don't think Loops meant to be condescending, AJ, famous painting or no. I think it was what he is pleased to call his sense of humour.
You have to understand that he nearly always has his tongue planted firmly between his cheeks.
(Sorry, couldn't resist)
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Post by Stil on Jun 15, 2006 6:17:12 GMT 7
Aj, give Loops a break. Without being condescending, he would have no personality at all.
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Post by Missi on Jun 15, 2006 6:23:54 GMT 7
Interesting read. Its like a mystery novel!!!! Hearing the two sides of the story and all..... (just no one has been killed yet)
GTO if you owe them money, pay it off. You hear about what happens to schools when someone has had a bad experience, the school gets "blackballed". Its the same for foreigners with schools. Maybe in Suzhou its different, I just know that's the way it is around here.
If indeed you have quit your job after you signed the contract and not on good terms, then you might have a difficult time finding a new job in Suzhou or maybe even China.
If you want to continue working in China, it might be a good idea, if you are the one at fault just pay it off. Or have someone with a few years experience here look over your contracts and ALL the paperwork you have for Boland and Shane and get their opinions.
To anyone else who might be coming to China with a little cash for your first month, you might try working in a smaller city where the school pays for the apartment and things are cheaper.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Jun 15, 2006 6:44:15 GMT 7
Most contracts I have seen have penalty clauses in them for breach of contract. You sign it - you agree to it.
In most countries of the world we figure once we have signed a contract it is a legally binding document. We expect it to be legally binding on THEM - so why shouldn't it be legally binding on us as well?
As for other agreements signed - normal business payments plans etc are again considered legally binding. Apart from that - in this country - who is going to have more clout - a lone foreigner or a company that will have established relationships with all of the relevant authorities?
As for the 2nd part of the course - will repeat what others have said. Enroll in a course, pay the fees up front - bail or fail you don't get your money back. You still owe them.
AND given the FAO grapevine in this country - you can easily find yourself with either no job or the worst job in the world that no other foreigner will take.
Sort it - or maybe consider another country!!
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Post by Mr Nobody on Jun 15, 2006 6:48:49 GMT 7
Hey, Raoul, don't need to see all the documents, only the one saying Shane was to pay Boland. Surely that cannot be considered a breech of privacy, while seeing any or all can be. Even a clear photocopy would do, surely.
The rest isn't in dispute, as far as I can see.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Jun 15, 2006 7:13:32 GMT 7
There seems to be a thought floating around in the ether - not just here, but in many places - that China is easy pickings for someone who considers themselves 'smarter than the average bear'. Just because China is a developing country does not mean it's denizens are stupid!! The westerners who are here and have established businesses have worked through an amazing obstacle course - they KNOW what the system is back to front. If they are still surviving in business, then you have to figure they aren't stupid. The local Chinese people might not be so good with English - but they also aren't stupid, and if they are in business and surviving - again aren't easy pickings. It is hard enough to gain respect as an outsider - apart from the novelty respect as a big-nose - without having to battle negative impressions local people ahve garnered from others trying to take them down. The previous teacher here was seen as arrogant, unfriendly, unhelpful etc. I have had to work really hard to have the administration and other teachers accept me, because of the damage he did to the reputation of foreigners in this university. They are totally surprised when I volunteer for anything, want to talk to them or offer to help out. The level of surprise is what I found most disquieting. 3rd world country does not equal 3rd rate minds. Sorry guys - rant over. Toss your brickbats!
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Post by Stil on Jun 15, 2006 7:51:14 GMT 7
Gto, you seem to be in breech of contract with Shane's school. Whether they owed you money or not, quitting without notice was not the option best taken.
Boland says you are also in breech of a signed agreement for regular payments of your outstanding debt. Is this true?
There are discrepancies as to whether or not you agreed to have your wages garnished by Boland. Boland says you agreed and have proof. Is this true?
The fact that your situation (Ukrainian money) is unique has nothing to do with Boland at all.
Demanding to be paid weekly is ridiculous. Being surprised and angered when they don't agree is more ridiculous.
Yes you should pay for part II of your training even if of you don't attend.
You are up against two major players in Suzhou. Your chances are slim, best to try and play nice. Failing to do so will definitely hurt you in the city and province and perhaps the country.
Hopefully you can get out of this mess. Good luck!
Lotus, good post.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Jun 15, 2006 11:30:06 GMT 7
Nobby, I did offer to view "the agreement in question", not the whole set. Are you fooling around with AJ in the back of the classroom or something? My impressions of Boland began when I hired some graduates of the program. All were first-rate and spoke well of Boland. Loops' visa woes are really not all his fault. He got a little bad advice from some local loser named "Raoul", who tried to apply logic to Loops' problem...always a dangerously stupid idea in China. Iff'n ya needed a part-time job, bunky, maybe ya shoulda said something. Con Descending A Staircase. I like it. It'd make a great companion to my Mona Con and Still Life With Hoser pieces, currently underway.
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Post by Mr Nobody on Jun 15, 2006 11:44:31 GMT 7
It's obvious I am working too hard and am having a bad week. Maybe if I cite the mistakes I have been making on the forum, they will give me more pay.
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Loops
Barfly
Raoul, after a day reading the garbage we dump on his forum...
Posts: 389
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Post by Loops on Jun 15, 2006 12:14:42 GMT 7
...bunky? I don't have a bunk bed... ACJade: I didn't want to upset you, I just didn't want to have to explain my post...and besides you should know my sense of humour by now, everyone else does...
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Non-Dave
Barfly
Try Not! Do - or Do Not... There Is No Try!
Posts: 701
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Post by Non-Dave on Jun 15, 2006 12:39:17 GMT 7
What a mess! There's always 2 sides to a story and it's good to see that both are being represented here.
My 2 cents worth (with flashbacks to a former life as a debt collector and bone breaker)...
An agreement (even an unpalatable one) is an agreement and if it's on paper it needs to be honoured. If Katie's assertion that several agreed upon dates for payment were not honoured is accurate then I can accept that her actions were pretty reasonable. I would have done/suggested similar in the same circumstances. I would also have been pretty pissed off if I was on the receiving end of it.
At this point I would be trying to swallow the pride and work out a resolution that allowed me to stay in country without getting my reputation bashed any further. A bitter pill but maybe a necessary one.
If the contract with Shane has the breach of contract penalties spelled out in it that may also be a difficult obstacle. I know my boss here tried something similar with a teacher who was breaking the contract by leaving 2 weeks early. Demanded 10,000 RMB as a penalty payment - but it wasn't specifically written in the contract. A phone call from a lawyer on the teachers behalf got that out of the way, but if it's in the contract...
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gto
New Chum
Posts: 8
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Post by gto on Jun 15, 2006 13:44:57 GMT 7
Again I want to thank everyone for their feedback. Yes I tried the Ukraine Embassy when I first got here. They don't even want their own money. They recommended I hang out at the airport and catch a flight attendant or pilot from Ukraine and try to exchange with them. I laughed at this as well. I told the Ukraine Embassy I doubted anyone would have that amount of money in American dollar and so eagerly wanted to exchange it. In the end I was able to mail the money out of the country. It in fact has now been exchanged but I am still waiting on my friend to wire it to me. Lets just hope I haven't been screwed yet again. AS to my Shane situation. They are aware I have posted them on this site. Katie Boland informend them. They have contacted all my employers in town and told them not to hire me. They also claim I have stolen some things from the apartment I was living in with my American friend. I have my friends contract (I signed no lease I was shacking up with a friend) and thankfully I have the list of items that were there when he moved in. I have been informed that the police will now be contacted and involved. I have contacted the American Embassy in Shanghai and they are monitoring the situation. Now I have a question for all of you. Shane School says I owe them a considerable amount of money for breaching my contract. They want a months salary, a breach of contract fee, and other fees I don't know where they are coming from. Should I pay Shane a dime? They inform me they are contacting an attorney. Also, about Boland. I never completed the course there. I have paid them off for the cost of the lodging and most of my book fee and feel I still owe them for the course up unitl I left. But Katie wants me to pay for the entire course even though I did not attend the entire course. What is everyones opinion on that issue? Should I pay Shane and should I pay Boland for services not rendered? I feel I owe Shane nothing and Boland money for what part of the course I did attend. Lets see what eveyone else thinks.
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Post by George61 on Jun 15, 2006 13:54:58 GMT 7
GTO, it's not a matter of what we think. It's a matter of what Shane and Boland think. If they have contacted all other employers in Suzhou, you are m'kayed as far as that town is concerned. If you have no money and no job, what can you do? Big mistake not coming with real money. Suzhouren may have local advice for you. Either way, it's a big mess!
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Post by Lotus Eater on Jun 15, 2006 14:05:02 GMT 7
We can't give real advice unless we see exactly what documents/contracts etc you signed. If you enrolled for the full Boland course - you are required to pay for it, whether you attended or not - same as with any other educational institution anywhere in the world.
If the Shane contract stipulates breach of contract fees - then you are required to pay them. If they had breached the contract with you, you would want them to pay the breach of contract fees.
If you signed contracts you are legally and ethically obliged to fulfill them.
BUT - we don't know any of the clauses or conditions in these contracts and unless we do, any advice we give is dodgy at best, and dangerous at it's worst.
Your options seem to be to pay up or contact a lawyer of your own. If you have messed this nest, you are going to find it hard to find another one.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Jun 15, 2006 14:25:16 GMT 7
They're right...you're obligated to pay what's in the contract. We haven't seen the contracts, so it's hard for us help you here.
If you can show that the other side made the first breach of contract, then you might have a case for not fulfilling your side. Otherwise, you're probably on the hook here.
Case Study: If the contract has exit terms that are too draconian, don't sign it. Negotiate those clauses out or just walk away.
You might also take these as a sign that the school has had a lot of teachers bolt on them, which doesn't look too good for the school.
Of course, the time to decide these things is before you sign...
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gto
New Chum
Posts: 8
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Post by gto on Jun 15, 2006 14:31:38 GMT 7
Further reading requires me to make a further post. Before I arrived in China I told Kaite Boland that when I got here I would be on my last dime. She told me this was not a problem, to email my resume and she would line up a job for me so I could start as soon as I got here. Boland represented me at the local job fair and told me I had two schools that wanted to hire me and how soon could I get here. I moved money around between 5 different banks (for the love of God dont ask) finally got the money arranged for my ticket, flew here and arrived only to find out out I did NOT have a job waiting for me. To make matters worse I brought Ukraine money. Kaite did help me in the beginning as I was very greatful. I stayed in their apartment and had my friend wire me 100 bucks. Half of which I gave to Boland. I also tood out what money I had in the bank (gave them some of that too) but kept the rest to live off of. I was told by Boland to buy some nice clothes for a job interview which I did. I was here over two weeks before I started my first job (remember I was told I had two jobs waiting for me and have the emails as proof) Now, because I was living in their aparment rent free, what ever they through at me I signed to keep my ass from getting put on the street. Yes there were many payment contracts between me and Boland none of which I could follow as I wasnt working and we all thought I could get my money exchanged (some 3 months later I still don't have it) So we signed contract after contract after contract, all broken as no money was coming in. So then I get hired on at Shane. Katie Boland informs me that it is agreed my ENTIRE salary will go to Boland and they will decide how much of it to give me to live off of. Hey, I am in their school for free, apartment for free, who am I to say no. I didn't like it, but what choice did I have other than take a walk with no money. I needed them to survive. Then a Boland representative came to Shane to collect money to pay my rent. Shane refused to give it to them in the middle of the month. So I had to sign a contract with Katie that allowed Shane to give them my money for my rent. It was not to be an every month thing but that is how Katie sees it and has worded it in her contract. I told them I didn't like it but I was reminded I was there for free and in the course for free and they did help me get the job. So who am I to say no. Even after this agreement, nearly every day Katie hounded me about paying her. At the end of the first half of the course, we both decided I should not enter the second half until the first half was paid for. Then I was told I had 2 days to get out of their apartment (this is where my room mate from America who went home because he is biploar comes into play) I moved in with an American also working at Shane. After I left Boland, I told Shane I would return there when I could afford it and they would pay me now that I was no longer in their course. There was no need for Katie to control my money and pay for the apartment anymore since I wasn't living there and no longer in the course. In the end, I gave Katie Boland a contract that I would pay her 2000rmb per month for 6 months, then and only then when she was paid in full, I would return to the course. She didn't sign it. And come pay day, her school was there at Shane (phoned by Shane to come there) and they snatched my money off the counter and it was being counted out to me. I later found out that Boland tried to collect 4900rmb (more than my salary) from Shane and Mr Ma did stand up for me and tell them no way only 2000rmb. Lets look at this. As a part time person at Shane I make 5000rmb per month. I spend 1000 to 2000 for rent, (depending on if I share a place or have my own) and agree Then I offered 2000rmb per month to Boland. Do the math, 2 plus 2 is 4 minus 5 is 1. I was planning on living off 1000rmb per month. This includes phone, food, everything. This was not good enough for Katie. She wants my entire salary and leave me with nothing to live on. As everyone can see, the situation is very complex, hundreds of contracts signed (majority I signed to keep from sleeping on the street) and everyone in town wants to control my money. If they would just leave me alone, my employer pay ME (not someone else) once a month like my contract says, I will pay Boland every month just like I told them. But all the people involved want to control me and my money. This is a HUGE personal issue for me. And for Lotus Eater, what little bit you have seen of me does not give you the right to judge my character. The person you saw was an angry person because of surronding circumstances. I have not had an enjoyable time in China. YES I am angry. We all have the ability and right to be at times. To say I am unfriendly and unhelpful, I think my students would disagree, the parents of all the classes at Shane who have specifically asked for me would disagree as well. And I too am teaching for free in some places. Your opinion of me is not who I am.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Jun 15, 2006 14:48:58 GMT 7
Whoa GTO - I have NEVER seen you - and have never said you were unfriendly, unhelpful or anything else!! All I have said is that the previous person in MY university damaged the reputation of foreigners here - and that I have had to work really hard to be accepted as a legitimate member of this university. And as far as I know he has gone back to the US, after the university failed to renew his contract because neither the admin nor the students wanted him back.
Who are you confusing me with??
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Post by Missi on Jun 15, 2006 15:48:14 GMT 7
I am confused. Anybody want to join me on my boat?
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Post by Mr Nobody on Jun 15, 2006 16:12:58 GMT 7
I'm not confused. GTO has admitted his fault. I can understand his anger, but looks like it is, after all, his fault.
Sorry, dude, looks like you are in the wrong, legally. I would see a lawyer, see if he can get you out.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Jun 15, 2006 22:08:17 GMT 7
A signed contract is a signed contract even if we don't like it...
I'm finding it hard to believe that Boland is trying to confiscate the entire salary. Seems out of line and out of character. But I'm trying to stay open-minded.
My offer is still good: I will view these documents as a neutral party and get the truth out here, if both sides will agree to it.
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