Culture shock or just plain ignorant?

[Juggler]

hey,

I know you are all in suzhou living it up! im glad someone is having a good holiday. I had to move. but believe me its a good thing.

So ok, now i finally got a down and serious quesiton about something I need help with.

Im american. and there we act differently. but here i see things that happen that i just think are down right rude and stupid.

examples
1. the driving in beijing is for the birds. nobody pays attention to the rules, hence they have terrible traffic.
its every driver for themselves.

2. waiting in lines(ie. mcdonalds, kfc or the subway)

You can be waiting your turn for a few minutes like normally and all of a sudden walks in mom or dad who doesn't give a rats ass that everyone else was there first and waiting patiently for their turn. but nobody ever says anything.

3. this one isnt a biggie. but.
as leaving/entering an establishment it is my custom to make sure that the door remains open for the next person behind me or in front of me. just giving the door an extra shove to keep the next person from having to open it.

4. subways- ok this one i have to have some major acceptance for. i have no choice but to take public trans here. so everyday i stand on my feet in class and on the subway and i get tired of people pushing me, stepping on my feet and just down right cutting me off.

for all of you who feel like i do.

what the hell can I do to make this easier for myself?
Ive tried prayer, meditation and music.

so far the only thing i find that keeps me from snapping on some fool who just stepped on my new 1500 rmb playboy work shoes is that i have my mp3 player turned up to "way too loud" or reading a book.

NOT TO MENTION ALL THE STARES PEOPLE GIVE YOU.

GEESH IM IN BEIJING NOT THE COUNTRYSIDE.

AND NO OFFENSE BUT HAVE YOU GUYS NOTICED HOW WOMEN STARE AT YOU AND SMILE EVEN WHEN THEY ARE WITH THEIR BOYFRIENDS OR HUSBANDS?

TALK ABOUT DISRESPECT.

Ive heard this doesnt take place in other asian countries.

my wife says its just that there are too many people in china.

i think that they are just freaking rude.

but i could be wong

[burlives]

Blundstone boot #302.

They have steel caps.

And you can walk on molten steel.


Their street boots have plastic caps.

But even so, they're the most comfortable shoes I ever stood up all day in.

[Raoul Duke]

Ay, boot to the head.

These are all good ones, but my biggest one here is being cut in front of in a line. I don't accept it. I raise hell. I have bodily lifted people who do this and gently set them down again somewhere behind me. I have stood between uniformed PLA officers and the window they were trying to cut to.

If the rest of these blighters won't fight for their own rights and respect, that's their problem. I will and I do.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Yessiree Bob
All of these things happen no matter where you are in the PRC. Chinese customs. I learned to ignore all but the queue jumping. Being somewhat larger than the average Zhong guo ren I too on occasions physically put them in their place, which was somewhere behind me. I used my elbows in the race for a subway seat. I still held doors for females, especially purty ones: some habits are too ingrained. And mostly they smiled, thanked me and went home to tell their husbands or fathers how polite foreigners are, unlike local "men".

[George61]

Sounds like "anywhere, China" Juggler, these things happen all over this great land. It is simply due to ignorance. Lack of education!
The average Chinese person lives in his own little bubble, looking out just one little window in the front. Cyclists that meander all over the road, concentrating on getting where they want to go, are the typical example. Education, such as getting run over by a taxi, will open another little window, and he will be able to look right and/or left the next time.
There is no awareness of the immediate world around them.
Education is our duty. Pedestrians who cut me off when I am walking, somehow get their heels clipped by my big, clumsy feet.
People who spit on the floor of a restaurant or supermarket, can listen to an instant playback of the "hawk, snort, pittoo!" accompanied by a snarling sneer. Instant embarrassment works! Who is going to go home and complain..." Hey, a m'kaying Laowai chewed me out 'cos I hawked up at the restaurant today"
Subtle education is fun......except when the Child catches me at it.....she takes a dim view.
Learn to live with it Juggler, but try to have fun, too.

[Newbs]

G'day Juggler

TIFC.

Okay, my 2 jiaos worth.
1. Driving in Beijing. The few times I've been to Beijing I've been impressed with the driving, in that it seems more orderly and controlled than in the rest of China. I'm not saying it's good but.

2. Face explains a lot. So, if I want people to think I'm important, busy, rich etc. etc. one way to demonstrate that is to cut into lines. I'd have to say that progress is being made here, in some supermarkets, banks and even, believe it or not, train ticket booking offices.

3. Sometimes I just go with the flow. There's 1 of me and there's 1.3 billion of them. Not a fair fight really. At the same time I'm not saying that I compromise my principles.

4. I reckon your wife's right about too many people. Environment explains a lot and the environment in China is one of big crowds. So, if you are always in a big crowd, you can't really look out for all the others. Therefore, look after yourself. Strewth, you should see me in the underground in Shanghai. If I was polite there I'd be history. Take the other extreme with environment, outback Australia. If you meet someone there you greet them, introduce yourself, have a chat, because there are fewer occasions when you can do that. I'm not saying one culture is superior to the other, I'm just saying that environment has a big effect on the behaviour of people.

Okay, there's Newbs' thought for the day.

[Steiner]

Newbs said:

4. I reckon your wife's right about too many people. Environment explains a lot and the environment in China is one of big crowds. So, if you are always in a big crowd, you can't really look out for all the others.

Funny how people in Hong Kong, Taipei, New York City, and Tokyo can act in an orderly manner. Maybe those crowds just aren't big enough?

[Juggler]

I have tried to just accept these things and go merrily along with the flow but sometimes I just think that these people are stupid and have little consideration.

its stressful for me to deal with this day in and day out. plus I have been working my tail off since i arrived last year so I never got a chance to go to school to study the language. I know some bad words but if i use them in these situations I may get my face slapped.

[burlives]

I too am suspicious of the too many people claim.

I've come to believe that Chinese culture has always been about too many people. Isn't it a kind of world-wide archetype, Chinese people clustered together? It's not a problem so much as it is a cultural choice.

The difficulty lies in the modern destruction of the better semblances of culture that they might otherwise have had.

Time will tell if in fact they are a nation of fearlessly no-nothing assholes or if they are going through one hundred years of transistion.

[Juggler]

It's hard to believe that only 100 years ago they were in a totally different situation. Now it seems they are overdoing the "catch up" thing.

I believe that some parts of the city I have been too have people that remind of american mind sets about 50 or 60 years ago.

i keep talking to my friends and my wife about the development of this country and how they love english and westernized lifestyles etc. I claim that eventually the political system may change to more , dare i say, democratic.

I can see capitalism all over this city wherever i go.

I just hope that the level of education develops too.

too many people theory. I dont believe it. It is a hypothesis. And how could we possible test this?

I dont have that kind of time or willingness.

I just think that these people are mostly selfish and caught in their own little world.

example:

cruising down the street with my wife in her car, headed to our new apartment. We had the green light and proceeded to turn left. Well wouldn't you know it, here comes mr. chang speeding down the wrong side of the street on his 5 yuan beijing special roadbike trying to get past us. hmmm. its a damn good thing i noticed him because he almost hit my wifes volkswagon.

geesh. sometimes i think that these people are so oblivious to their surroundings that maybe what they do need is not only education but perhaps a good natural disaster or terrible accident to wake them up.

How could us laowai possibly change them? never can happen.

I know for sure that just being able to talk to someone here at the salon gives me a chance to breath my fire about it. because my wife just doesn't understand it.
she says it normal and ok. but then again she doesnt stand on the subway for 1.5 hours everyday.

and when we do take the subway on the weekend to go to tian' square or wanfujin or xidan for shopping she automatically complains about the number of people.
and thats funny because at that time the trains are way less crowded.

its good to hear your opinions.

[burlives]

"Too many people" is propaganda, I think. It's a blurb to put on a lack of civic culture. How hard is it to be polite? Damn hard, if you've never learned and no one has ever expected you too.

They're peasants! What is it, five billion years? -- a continuous culture that has had its continuity on the farm.

At first glance one might also be tempted too to say this culture has had its modernity in a stew of destruction and dislocation, roughly from WWI, and certainly from WWII, through the cultural revolution, which i assume was an extreme and outstanding representation of how things were (and are) anyway, till now.


It makes a good speech anyway.

[Wolf]

Steiner said:

Funny how people in Hong Kong, Taipei, New York City, and Tokyo can act in an orderly manner. Maybe those crowds just aren't big enough?

To the commuting crowds of Beijing, I bequeath my whole entire ... boot to the head.

Where did that skit come from? I had it downloaded on my computer when I lived in Jiangxi.

The too many people explianation is indeed a steaming pile of poo. I live in the sort-of-Tokyo area (population 30 million), and let me tell you the commuting crowds here are worse than anything I ever saw in China. But I never get stared at. Queing is the norm. People aren't spectacularily polite but it's no combat zone either.

Personally I chalk it up to the lack of education in such matters as well. Defensive driving courses are commonplace for young drivers in other places. Kids are taught to que from an early age in Japan (I work in elementary schools sometimes.) Many Chinese have never been properly introduced to such ideas.

By the way, queing, not spitting and defensive driving makes you a model citizen of the People's Republic. The government has from time to time asked its citizens to play nice.

Re: not staring in other Asian contries. Well, that's a lot of countries. But I did notice that the border to Hong Kong and Macau has a magical property that eliminates most of the staring when crossed. Also in Japan visible minorities can go rather far into the wilderness and still not cause much of a stir.

Queing was fun. I would often by virtue of might makes right allow a mother with young kids or elderly people onto a bus before me - while holding back the sea of thronging non-quers. ;D There's nothing to be done here, but I did notice that queing in some places was better than others (banks and post offices seemed good, my uni's cafeteria was Ok, but bus stations where right out of the book of Revelations.)

I didn't care much for the staring. I lived on a giant farm in the middle of nowhere, and I stuck out like The Beast of the Apocalypse (to extend the Biblical metaphor) at times. The staring falls off somewhat if you're travelling with other Chinese, I noticed.

What can you do to make it easier? Don't give up on the prayer and meditation.

Take up relaxing hobbies for your down time. There must be interesting things to do out there in Beijing.

How long have you been in China? I found that over time I got used to everything except the staring. If you're going through your post honeymoon downturn, then just give yourself a bit of time. I found that by the one year point the traffic stopped bothering me, for instance.

Even if you get mad, don't take standoffish action unless the situation really warrents it. I remember staring down one hello hooligan for a few minutes only to face the same problem a few yards down the road. I accomplished nothing but spiking my blood pressure.

Most Chinese don't behave this was out of malice (although a few do.) Redouble your efforts to make real friends amoung the locals. It can be done with a bit of patience. I had a lot of Chinese (espeically my female students) confess to me that the lack fo queing, traffic disasters, spitting, etc downright sucked. Such things were regarded like high taxes; moan-worthy but what can you do? We're not alone in that.

[Juggler]

this is how i feel about that whole situation sometimes.

I know that not all of them are like this. In fact i think most are not line jumpers but the few make the rest look bad. ya know the old story, one bad apple makes .....

I certainly dont give up my prayer and meditation. I use it daily wether i am having bad times or good times. its just something i must do.

as far as relaxation: I play guitar and juggle but recently my wife and i have been argueing and in the middle of a move. we found a great apartment for 1500 rmb per month. its a new apartment and its 100 square meters. its on the 5th floor but it doesnt matter to me. i stand on my feet all day and climb stairs constantly. so one more flight a day isn't going to kill me.

One thing that I can add to this moment of "terror" in beijing is that I don't think it has a damn thing to do with the number of people. like some people have said. tokyo, seoul and other cities happen to have a large population and they dont act this way.

ignorance is my final jepordy answer.

[Steiner]

I think the whole unruly crowd aspect was one of Chairman Mao's gifts to the Mainland. Knowing that the good people of Hong Kong and Taiwan can line up for things quickly and easily eliminates any notion that the unruly crowd behavior has anything to do with either 1) big crowds, or 2) Chineseness.

I'm heading to Taipei for a trip in a week and I'll report back afterwards on whether the Taiwanese are still orderly.

[Ruth]

I just spent 2 days in Beijing. Folks there obey traffic rules (by western standards) better than folks in my Chinese hometown. But left turns are tricky and one must constantly be on guard - as a pedestrian and I'm sure as a driver.

I don't have advice for you on the 1.5 hours a day commute on the subway. I guess I would read or listen to music. Try to ignore the ignorant. There are lots of polite Chinese, but as you said, one bad apple...

The train station was a zoo on Thursday. My dearly beloved and I were traveling with a 12 year old (borrowed) child. She ended up through the ticket gate ahead of us. We were separated by a group of 3 people. Crippler was holding the crowd back so I could go through, but I was waiting for the remaining two people of the group of 3 to go through on my right. Some arsehole came up on my left (not sure how he got around Crippler). I stuck my elbow in his ribs and moved my body in to follow. Group of three went on through (one said 'thank you' in English to me), then my turn, then Crippler's. Not sure what happened to the arsehole because I was too afraid to turn around and look. I don't usually behave like that - but the crowd was unbelievable. What makes him more important than the other 3,000 (ok, not that many) people trying to go through the same turnstile?

I am proud of my blocking maneuver though. Wouldn't want to have to struggle like that every day just to get to work. you have my sympathy, Juggler. My 2 jiao worth is try to ignore the arseholes and smile at the nice folk.

[Ruth]

About waiting in line and queue jumpers - we took above mentioned 12 year-old borrowed child to the Beijing Amusement Park. Waited in line almost 5 hours for the upside down roller coaster - had I known when we started it would take that long... Never mind. The kid had never been on one and she was thrilled when we finally got our 1 1/2 minute ride.

People were spelling each other, so there was fairly constant movement of people in and out of the line. Crippler spelled us for awhile so we could go on another ride and have a potty break. Nevertheless, you kind of get to know the people in line around you when you wait together for that long. Just as we were about to enter the fenced section of the line-up, this man and boy appeared out of nowhere. I couldn't figure out who they were 'joining' in line, but don't have the language to ask. They crept along with us in line for a little while, but when it was our turn to actually make it to the fenced section, the man in front of us turned around and confronted the dad. Dad pled his case for his son, but the other man kept on talking and pointing to the back of the line (w-a-a-y in the distance). They finally left. Good for the man in front of me - my new hero. I thanked him. I had a kid with me too and she had been oh so patient, bless her heart.

Death to line-jumpers

[George61]

Ruth, Ruth, Ruth.....I am soooo worried about you. Your language and behaviour is getting quite disgusting. It must be the corrupting influence of certain members of this board. Not me, of course, but other low types. It's probably a good thing you didn't get to Suzhou.....certain of the women folk may have fainted. They are soooo delicate!! Now, we all know you are not Australian, so please don't swear in Australian. Swear, if you must, in American, eg...asshole!

[Ruth]

George, thank you for your concern. You need to know that putting 'arsehole' in print was a big deal for me. I just can't do the other. That isn't to say that when I am in a fine state that I can't come out with a few choice expressions - but usually in private, not actually to someone's face.

I'm sharpening the elbows before I go to Beijing again, though.

[Lotus Eater]

Whereas I can swear just fine in Chinese (and American - I can say hairy ass, asshole with the best of them) I have major difficulties in doing it in Australian. Although I think I consider the F word to be American or Anglo Saxon, and so when the mood is right (or the company forgiving enough) that one will work.

I am sure it has to do with the words that your mother washed out your mouths for. The emotional content of bad language in your own tongue is way higher than the exact same words in a different language.

[Mr Nobody]

My socialogy prof is just eating up this info I am feeding him. Maybe I can get a master;s yet without actually doing the work?
Nah, but it is worth a try.

[Lotus Eater]

Then your sociology professor is slack as. These are basic observations made by travellers everyday, all over the world. Tell him to come out of his ivory tower and come play with real people for an hour or so.

Milieu changes behaviour is a common or garden variety observation.

[Mr Nobody]

I have him talked into retiring early and teaching engrish in china

he isnt in an ivory tower, I was trying to make a drunken ass joke.

but seriously, he wants to teach ingrish in china. Says it will be easier than teaching the dead heads he is getting these days.
(I wonder if he was including me?)

[Ruth]

SURELY there are more dead heads in my classrooms in China than in your classroom, Mr. N? I was an adult student not too long ago. We were all paying to be there and actually WANTED to learn something. My favorite profs told us that they prefered teaching adults for that very reason.

Lotus, it wasn't my mother's influence. My family was such close friends with another family that I call them my second parents. THAT mom wouldn't even let us call children 'kids'. We spelled B-U-M and giggled about it. S-T-U-P-I-D was another word we spelled because we weren't allowed to say it.

I don't want to learn how to swear in Chinese. I can't conceive of a situation where it would do me any good.

[Lotus Eater]

Depends on what he means by easier! Today neither the students nor I wanted to be there - it is Sunday for heaven's sake. So despite me spending half of yesterday planning a class for them that I thought was half-way intersting (given the topic is the political process in Britian and the USA) it went flat as. One guy was sound asleep up the back, another studying a Chinese based lesson. After the break I did a little temper tanty and pointed out that I would prefer it if they didn't come if they weren't interested! Quit wasting their and my time. Will see what happens next class.

So is that easy? I don't think so. It also isn't easy when you are unsure as to how much they are actually understanding and learning - for 2 reasons. What level of English comprehension do they actually have (as opposed to words they can read) and they refuse (until the last couple of weeks of class in my experience) to ask questions, or ask for clarification.

Students back home (at least in Oz) don't turn up unless they feel like it, and so the participation level in tutes is higher (this is university level I am talking about), they are better at asking questions and arguing points, so you have some idea of what they have and haven't understood, and in most cases they are operating in L1, and so to reach this level (3rd years today) should have a high comprehension level.

But the easy bits are good: they are in general really polite; don't bring weapons to class; very quiet; accept uncomplainingly what you do;and you can develop a closer relationship with them without the overtones that would bring in western countries.

There is a belief that Chinese students work really hard. This I am uncertain of. I think they may do a lot of work but I am not sure it is effective or hard. Todays lot appeared uncomprehending of the work that we have spent doing for the last 6 weeks (foundations of culture) - so have they even looked at it between classes? I don't know.

Went to have a grizzle to one of my Chinese colleagues. His view: they are lazy, very used to being spoon fed and treated as children. His solution: only develop one concept per class (for 2 hours!) and use many many examples. Second solution - use frequent small (pop quizzes) tests to keep them working.

His view is that I shouldn't slow my language down for them, that they are English majors and should be trying to work at higher levels. I have slowed down from what I would do at home, but was thinking maybe I should speak even more slowly.

I hate it when classes go badly - I come away and spend the next couple of days questioning what I am doing, how I should do it and what else can I do.

Easy depends on attitude - don't care = dead easy. Care = good days and bad days.

[Newbs]

I don't want to learn how to swear in Chinese. I can't conceive of a situation where it would do me any good.

I would tend to agree with you Ruth. I've lost my cool here a few times and let fly with what I think was Chinese swearing. However, as I reflected on it in the cold, hard light of dawn I reckon it didn't do me any good. I reckon that in the eyes of the Chinese I lost face and so they felt vindicated or superior or something.