Culture shock or just plain ignorant?

[Lotus Eater]

Ruth, my mother wouldn't allow kids either - but for some weird reason kiddies was OK! But being able to swear at a taxi driver when you know you are being ripped off is very useful.

After a 120Y rip-off when my family were here I had huge satisfaction in using every swear word I had learned as well as pointing out how honest and wonderful laowai were, as opposed to cheating Zhongguoren, and how all my family would tell their friends back home not to come to China, and how he had made China lose face.

After his first 'ting bu dong' I really let go, and by his change in demeanour, he 'ting dong'ed thoroughly. It can be useful - and certainly gained me the respect of my family!! (I am not seen as the stirry one by them! )

[George61]

It is a problem, innit? They are supposed to be "Uni" students, but they don't even remember any Primary School English they may have been taught. They don't use English, so they don't remember it. Simple stuff, like clothing, has a lot of them completely flummoxed. If we teach simple stuff, they get bored...if we toughen up, they get antsy. Only the keen ones get anywhere, and they are few and far between.

[Mr Nobody]

About my sociology lecturer friend - I have taught his students a couple of times as a guest lecturer in psych of violence for his second year sociology of violence course, and I think he is pretty right about the students. It is getting weird. They are almost chinese like in their attitude of wanting the answer not how to think.

He is a bit negative, but I think he is just suffering a certain amount of burnout. But it is true that the students are different from when I did my first degree.

One student told me that she would never do science because of the way it is studies, with all that scientific method.

? I thought. Soci ----- ology. Hm scientific method applied to social stuff. What?

The tutes - told them the answers in teh lecture. Told them the answers and questions in a handout. told them the answers in the tute. Still didn't know the answers, led them by the hand throught the tute. Then told them it was examinable, and the question would be on this. They then wanted me to do it again, since the didn't know they were supposed to pay attention. Asked me to put it on the web, said no. They were indignant. I said, lecture, tute, handout, what else do you want?

I got dozens of phone calls asking to explain it again, Never ever will I hand out my phone nr again.

this was a mature age class.

[Nate M]

George61 said:

It is a problem, innit? They are supposed to be "Uni" students, but they don't even remember any Primary School English they may have been taught. They don't use English, so they don't remember it. Simple stuff, like clothing, has a lot of them completely flummoxed. If we teach simple stuff, they get bored...if we toughen up, they get antsy. Only the keen ones get anywhere, and they are few and far between.

Part of the problem, I think, is that they pass them all along and lump them into the same classes, when a good chunk of them obviously can't cut it at the levels some of their classmates are at. So you have to teach to the middle, but the gulf is so damned big by the time they get to university that the smart kids get bored and the rest just don't understand. I've recommended to the flight attendant school at the end of last semester to separate them into beginners, intermediate, and advanced levels, (and to actually teach them accordingly). They sounded enthusiastic about it, but we'll see if they follow through.

[MK]

We recently got streaming according to level of English at my school - it's a major loss of face for students to be in what they know is one of the lower classes, so there was a lot of drama surrounding the testing and streaming process - but we got there.

The result? We now have one absolutely wonderful top class, a so-so middle class and two lower classes that ...umm, are a challenge.

However, you can see why the kids who are in the top class made it there - no newsapers/mobile phones/talking over others etc. They all always do their homework. They ask questions. it's a dream to teach them actually.

[Ruth]

MK - that's great. Do you think the concept will spread to the rest of the country?

At my school kids are divided into classes according to marks, but that is total marks for all subjects. And guanxi, or money, or pushy parents can influence placement of students. The head teacher for one class told me about 20 students (of 63) didn't really belong in the class ability-wise. And a smart student in math or science could be right up there mark-wise, but suck at English. Doesn't give a flip about my classes or learning English, but he's in my class anyway.

[MK]

Well, it only happened here because the UK partners in the programme requested it - and we still have some of the problems you mention - for instance the top two classes have to have 40 students to save as many faces as possible, and we also have to include their marks from Computing and Business in the mix, so there is room for corruption there too (though in theory these subjects are taught entirely in English by the CHinese teachers...).
Still, it's working out pretty well for now.

[woza17]

Lotus, I listened to you in Suzhou about that don't move on to they have thoroughly learnt the language in that particular lesson thing. It made me think, so I downloaded this great lesson plan from Bogglesworld it's called Personal Financial Planning and I for one think it's great. It made me realize how much I take for granted and how much I let them get away from class not fully understanding. I will do this whole lesson this week and I will test them on Friday. The students love this lesson plan because they want to learn "business English" it's interactive, lots of role playing reinforcement of vocabulary and accounting. My point,I listen to you.
Ruth, I remember at High School I was brought before the principal for breaking a girls wrist in a fight with a hockey stick, she reprimanded me and I said OK and then she really got stuck into me for using the word OK, that is American she said not English.
The greater sin seemed to be my use of the word OK.
By the way, the other girl dislocated my collar bone.
My sister rarely swears but when she does look out .
What was the thread anyway? Oh yes Culture Shock.
I think the first culture shock I had was when I went o India when I was 18 and then seeing the slums in Scotland. To me China is easy, it's the teaching that bothers me, I want to push them, I see their futures they don't seem to. Bloody harsh. If you learn this you can get a better job and so on. Don't tell me how hard you study tell me how you study.
I have a lovely bunch of students but they always want me to be happy and not get angry. I say I only get angry because I care for you bastards (they know that word) Anyway we will get there wherever there is.
Woza (best friend of Joes the tour guide)

[Jollyjunklass]

Hey Woza.

Are you letting out subtle hints as to your identity, or is it just some inside joke.

Anyway, there is something I am finding quite interesting. I post with Chinese students, and it seems like they are naive to a flaw. This is only over the internet, so I am not really sure which ages I am conversing with, although I think most are older teens and up.

They seem to think they are so worldly and that their education system demands a lot of them, and that, perhaps , their system is above or equal to others in the world.

Now, I don't know if they sound naive because I am experiencing somewhat of a language barrier with them, or if they are, truly as naive as they seem. I think it may be the latter.

Also, their idea of what is important to learn seems totally different than what I would consider important.

Is this just me, do they see how naive they are in comparison to say, our teens over here. It almost comes across, to me like a whole lot of ignorance. Am I wrong here, is my opinion based on the fact that there is a language barrier. If not, don't you just want to yell at times, and start feeding them a ton of facts. Open their eyes.

I really have no right to make these comments, because I am not in the actual classrooms. But, I do converse with them on a daily basis and it seems to, sometimes, blow me away.

[George61]

Millana, they ARE naive....and they generally do think they have the best education inthe world.

[Lotus Eater]

They are naive - many 20 year olds you would swear are less than 16 in attitude. They do think they have the best education in the world, but they will also tell you that they are not taught to think (they aren't). You can toss all sorts of facts at them, but there are facts they WILL NOT hear, so no matter how much you want to do that, it is not worth it.

Chinese history and political facts in particular are totally off limits. I often wonder what culture shock they receive when they go overseas and hear/see/learn a different version of what they think they know. They are very happy to learn some really weird facts about the west, particularly if it puts the west in a poor light.

A couple of recent 'pearls' from my 3rd year University students:

"A study by London police in 1992 found that almost 2 men out of 3 believed they would be violent to their wife or partner in certain situations, and this contributed to the high divorce rate in Britian."

"Britishers are good at queueing, but when driving, they're very shot-tempered. Likewise, pedestrians run the red light frequently. In my opinion, it's not a problem of personality but of social morality awareness. Everybody merely thinks of himself, regardless of other people. No wonder they are so many traffic accidents in Britian every year." (spelling is the original).

"A lot of Britishers like to ask for sick leave. ..... What's more over one-third of the sick leaves have nothing to do with illness..... The sick leaves caused the economy loss up to 13,000,000 pounds. ... We are impelled to say individualism is the main chief criminal. Imagine if everyone takes the collective seriously, how can they neglect the loss?"

"[American] people are eager to express their own ideas on a certain topic rather than keep silent and just be a listener. They tend to be more argumentative while the Asians are more modest."

"And it is a fact that the American government spends a relatively large proportion of budget on armaments. And it often interfers with other countires affairs. When facing international conflicts, American government tends to solve the conflicts by a show of strenght and fighting."

It's all good clean fun!

[MK]

Chinese history and political facts in particular are totally off limits. I often wonder what culture shock they receive when they go overseas and hear/see/learn a different version of what they think they know.

I have met a lot of my own former students who now study in the UK. They (most of 'em) simply to continue 'not to' see or hear anything that runs contrary to what they have learned so far - also, they are there to pass a course and get the foreign degree, and don't tend to absorb much more information than they need for that purpose. You won't catch many of them watching BBC News or in the 'China' section of the uni' library.

[woza17]

Millana what inside joke what identity? Who do you think I am. When you figure it out let me know it's a question that has always puzzled me.

I"d had a few cans when I wrote that.

[Jollyjunklass]

I think I have guessed who you are, go to the picture board. Some peeps are sending N and I on small goose chases, so I thought maybe your references to Joe, the guide, were trying to throw us, as to your identity.

However, I think we have you guessed right.

As to guessing who YOU REALLY ARE, can't help you out there, I'm too busy trying to figure myself out still

[Ruth]

It isn't just the students who are ignorant. During a discussion in my office awhile back a teacher wanted to know if all husbands in America bought their wives houses before they were married. (I didn't laugh. I'm very proud of not laughing.) I tried to explain that it takes most couples most of their married lives with BOTH of them working to actually own a home. They weren't buying it. I could see the disbelief on their faces. Another teacher chimed in with the sure knowledge that we could stay home from our jobs often because we made so much money that we didn't need to work all the time.

It's only in China that I don't have to work very hard to bring in a salary. that's part of the reason I'm still here.

[Crippler]

Out of 200+ students, I have 3 (all girls) who consistently ask me how to pronounce a word and practice until they get it right. All the rest listen and then say it the way the Chinese teacher says it. I asked them why they were the oddballs and each one said that their parents told them that using a language was more important that just learning it. Wow! Made my day! Now for the others??

[George61]

I have 3 (all girls) who consistently ask me how to pronounce a word and practice until they get it right.

Lucky bastard! I have one student who really desires to improve his pronunciation. He asks, and I deliver, but the bastard is totally deaf. He pronounces his "Ns" as "Ms" and cannot hear the difference. Pronounces "tongue" as "Tum"
I ask him "What is the Chinese word for "sugar" ..."Yes, what is the Chinese word for "sugar"...."NO, NO, NO, how do you say "sugar" in Chinese?......"Yes, how do you say "sugar" in Chinese"
He's a nice kid, but duzzenlissen!

[Ruth]

Don't be too harsh on him George. I am having such difficulty with Chinese because I can't hear the difference in tones. I can get the flat and the down/up but it's really difficult for me to tell the difference between descending and ascending tones.

[George61]

Yes, Ruth, but listening to tones is a tad different to listening to the words coming from the mouth of your teacher.

[Ruth]

Maybe just a tad different, but I don't think so. My friends are so patient with me. They speak slowly and clearly and patiently try to help me hear the difference. I can't. And I certainly can't reproduce the sounds I can't distinguish.

I have new respect for the kids I teach since I got serious about learning Chinese. It isn't easy to learn a second language.

[Crippler]

Of course Ruth must learn to speak English correctly first. She still can't finish a sentence without adding Eh on the end of it. I have been trying to break her of the Canuck twang for years but still can't do it. Huh!

[Jollyjunklass]

Good luck my friend, ha!!!!
Canadian tradition at it's best, don't you think, eh

[con's fly is open]

I am apparently a very vain man: I love the attention. I find China's quirks endearing, amusing, or, at worst, irritating... save one:

Queue jumping, or as we say in North America, cutting in. In Canada, lining up is scrupulous. Everybody keeps a keen eye on their place in line, especially if the line is jumbled, say at a bus stop. Respecting chronological order is the deepest Canadian value: I respect all other people as equals. They exist. And by the same equation, so do I, as much as everyone else.

Chinese bastards that cut in front of me fill me with a rage all out of proportion to the offense. They, through this act, have just informed me that I don't exist, am invisible, or at the least am inferior to them. I worry that one day I'll snap and beat the bejesus out of some guy who figured that since I was wasn't dry-humped the person in front of me, that I wasn't in a hurry, and had given an open invitation to step ahead.

I'll never make peace with this Chinese custom. Ever.

[Jollyjunklass]

Your right Con,

Maybe it is a Canadian thing. I get real pissed when I see some, control freak, adult bud in line in front of a kid. I never really gave, why, much thought. But you have hit it right on the nose, it's an existence thing, like I count. Which is probably why some assholes feel it's okay to do it to kids.

It enrages me to think that, because the kid doesn't have the nerve to pipe up, some adult feels they can walk all over him. COWARDS at their peak.

[Juggler]

i have to admit something.

this is the best response ive ever gotten from starting a thread.

oh gosh. i have a brain. does that mean i have to use it now?

god. where did I go wrong?