LJ
Upstanding Citizen
One piston, 10,000 revs!
Posts: 63
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Post by LJ on Aug 23, 2005 9:35:15 GMT 7
Slim, I know where you are coming from, don't get me wrong, I have plenty of friends, and I don't feel isolated or unhappy in China. I just choose friends that have no mental illness and are not living in a fantasy.
I just have a problem with some foreigners that feel they are 'better' than others.
- Because they are visting for a short term and want to immerse themselves in the culture, and don't want to communicate.
- Because they feel that 'this is China' and must distance themselves from other laowai.
- Because they think they have very good or are trying to attain good Chinese and feel that they are more 'worthy'.
- Because they have been here longer and feel they are 'better' than newcomers.
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I'm playing devils' advocate here, I'm going to suggest that if you do not have perfect fluent Chinese, and a near complete understanding of Chinese culture, living in China long term without foreign (preferably fluent English speaking) friends to talk to could make one become mentally unstable. ;D
I find new friends among the 'noobs' and behave toward them in a friendly, helpful and un-patronising way. This is because when I arrived I was greeted by ignorant, snobbish and even potentially violent laowai.
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Crippler
Barfly
Beware the conspiracy!
Posts: 345
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Post by Crippler on Aug 23, 2005 10:12:55 GMT 7
Usually I deal with everyone the same. If they are walking and looking the other way I ignore. If they look at me with friendly eyes, they get Hi, how are you, what's up? or something similar. I can say hello in several languages so if I know I will address them in their tongue. Very seldom do I get into conversations unless they initiate. But, I am friendly with all. Yesterday Ruth and I were walking downtown with a friend when a young man walk up to us and needed to get cash from bank but didn't know where to go. I simply told him where to go!
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Post by acjade on Aug 23, 2005 17:29:21 GMT 7
Mentally unstable?  Most people on the planet are in denial to some degree which makes them unstable. I get on with the population as it comes to me. For example, I'm not a great one for the computer but I came across this site read it and thought, yep, these people are people I wanna hang out with.  As a woman I don't meet a lot of other Western women but I've met a lot of Crusty the Clowns and why would I want to hang out with them? Where's the common ground?  I was a mother in Oz and a teacher. Same job here. So in a way I mix with Chinese people because they're the people who make up my intimate, family circle and my profession.  I've walked down the main drag and noticed foreigners look away as if I've rained on their parade but it doesn't worry me in the least. They're the losers.  Last semester my adopted son met some English speaking Swiss boys who were here studying Chinese. When and How approached them in a computer retail shop when they were struggling to communicate with the sales assistant. He befriended the boys and helped them purchase the bits and pieces they were after and they exchanged numbers. He was very excited about this and rang me so he could introduce them to his foreign mother. I invited the boys to spend the following Saturday on campus and they had a ball. And a roast dinner.  By nature I'm an introvert so rarely seek out company but if I see a foreigner in distress I answer the call of humanity and ask if I can be of assistance. If I can't I contact When and How who usually gets a solution from his family or the uncle of someone's brother in the guanxi line. I've never deliberately cold shouldered anyone and if I smile at someone and they look past me as though I'm the invisible woman some strange Chinese person gives me a smile more radiant than than the sun.  On the home campus front I have to deal with people who act in a manner I believe unbecoming to gentlemen but I'm not a saint and try to keep my focus on the job. Last year I was housed next door to a woman from one of my home countries who thought we should be best friends as long as I thought the same way and backed up all her staggeringly ignorant assumptions about life and ethnocentric opinions about the people who employ us. It was a stretch to remain cordial but I did. Not out of a sense of loneliness but because I didn't know what else to do.  Next year I'll be living off campus so I won't have that intense pressure but I will still be an introvert who likes people and refuses to believe I'm spoiling their day by being a Western woman in the middle of the Middle Kingdom.  And one who prays Crusty the Clown moves on as quickly as he can.  |
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Wolf
Charter Member and Old Chum
Though this be madness, yet there is method in it.
Posts: 1,150
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Post by Wolf on Sept 2, 2005 6:05:49 GMT 7
Meh. I treat people the way I always do.
I hate feeling like I'm part of some secret brotherhood of white people. I only know of one or two brotherhoods of white people, and they aren't the type of people I want to emulate.
I speak the local language, so I can gab with anyone I choose. And there are quite a few of us here on the Kanto plain. Thus I just ignore most people, irregardless of their ability to speak some mutant poor foster child of the Germanic langauge family.
I help out foreingers who look lost, and I got to know the other foreigner in my apartment building, but I don't like altering my behavior to others based on their ethnic background.
That's just me, though.
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LJ
Upstanding Citizen
One piston, 10,000 revs!
Posts: 63
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Post by LJ on Sept 2, 2005 16:55:02 GMT 7
It's NOT about being white!
It's about NOT being a local Han Chinese!
In fact a Chinese American or a Hong Kong Chinese or Chinese that have staudied outside China for long term, I relate to just as well.
It's about being able to speak with people in a complete and fluent way. I speak good Chinese, but my English is much better, because it's my native language, and I need to use it regularly for my own sanity.
I'm not advocating starting the China Klu-Klux-Klan for Godssake!
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Post by con's fly is open on Sept 2, 2005 21:18:46 GMT 7
I'm not advocating starting the China Klu-Klux-Klan for Godssake! Just as well: have you tried to keep white clothes clean here? A Chinese chapter of the KKK: can't think of a punchline, but I can't stop laughing either. Wait... a scene from Monty Python's The Meaning of Life. John Cleese: Next week is the anniversary of the Boxer Rebellion, so remember to attend church service in memory of all those brave lads who laid down their lives to keep China British. |
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Post by acjade on Sept 2, 2005 21:22:25 GMT 7
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Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 2, 2005 22:33:33 GMT 7
I am with the Boxers, even if their kung fu was crappy. Australians fought in the various wars around that time. There was even an Australian gunship in Foshan up the Pearl river, using cannons on rowboats trying to fight a modern (for the time) war vessel. Another boat around the same time, not sure what nationality, shelled the temples in Guangzhou along the river. I think this was around 1900. They have some powerful reasons to distrust westerners. Look at the opium importantion and the deliberate destabilization of the Ming Dynasty by the Catholics, specifically the (forgot the name, the ones who have priests who are also engineers and physicists and some of whom make nuclear bombs in USAnia - the >  ?) |
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Post by acjade on Sept 2, 2005 22:36:03 GMT 7
Does this have anything to do with the term 'Boxers' as in underdaks?
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Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 2, 2005 22:39:02 GMT 7
nah. Has to do with Chinese boxing, or kung fu. Boxer shorts named after the dudes punching each other in the ring.
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Post by acjade on Sept 2, 2005 22:47:02 GMT 7
 You know, I knew that. My brain's leaking.
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Post by acjade on Sept 2, 2005 22:50:31 GMT 7
They have some powerful reasons to distrust westerners. Look at the opium importantion and the deliberate destabilization of the Ming Dynasty by the Catholics, specifically the (forgot the name, the ones who have priests who are also engineers and physicists and some of whom make nuclear bombs in USAnia - the > ?) The Jesuits. |
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Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 3, 2005 3:47:40 GMT 7
Yah
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Wolf
Charter Member and Old Chum
Though this be madness, yet there is method in it.
Posts: 1,150
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Post by Wolf on Sept 5, 2005 5:35:58 GMT 7
It's NOT about being white! It's about NOT being a local Han Chinese! In fact a Chinese American or a Hong Kong Chinese or Chinese that have staudied outside China for long term, I relate to just as well. It's about being able to speak with people in a complete and fluent way. I speak good Chinese, but my English is much better, because it's my native language, and I need to use it regularly for my own sanity. I'm not advocating starting the China Klu-Klux-Klan for Godssake! I know. Discourse with people who understand you is a lot more fun than the alternative. I just feel icky zeroing in on expats now that I do speak the local lingo. I remember reading about the boxers. But only briefly. |
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Post by George61 on Sept 5, 2005 5:44:43 GMT 7
Ouch!!!
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Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 5, 2005 19:30:30 GMT 7
Wedgies again?
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Wolf
Charter Member and Old Chum
Though this be madness, yet there is method in it.
Posts: 1,150
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Post by Wolf on Sept 6, 2005 5:57:30 GMT 7
Maybe that's why he's doing the chicken dance. |
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Post by George61 on Sept 6, 2005 9:27:40 GMT 7
No, dummies. It was that dreadful pun!!
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Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 6, 2005 12:04:15 GMT 7
I have an honest question in regards sort of to the OP.
Do those of you who want to talk to others, also want to talk to black people from western countries?
This isn't supposed to be provocative, so I appologize in advance. But do you? Or if you are black, white guys?
Is it a language thing or is it a familiarity thing that is being rationalized as a language thing?
Any thoughts?
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Post by Stil on Sept 7, 2005 9:22:00 GMT 7
I have an honest question in regards sort of to the OP. Do those of you who want to talk to others, also want to talk to black people from western countries? This isn't supposed to be provocative, so I appologize in advance. But do you? Or if you are black, white guys? Is it a language thing or is it a familiarity thing that is being rationalized as a language thing? Any thoughts? I'm the only foreigner in my town so for me it doesn't matter the colour of the person. It's about being able to speak English without thinking about what words I use and not having to be careful with idioms and expressions. people from similar cultures can use expressions, that while others have never heard before, will still be understood. Oh and i'm not white. Not black either, sort of ovaltine. |
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Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 7, 2005 10:46:37 GMT 7
I was just wondering. Judging my own reactions, I mean. I can tell if they are from a similar 'tribe'* to me by looking, of whatever race. I was walking along the day before I posted that, and noticed an African negro wearing, you know, bright African clothes. I felt no compunction to go and talk to him, but none of the strange feeling that is sort of like embarrassment that i get when I see other white people I don't want to talk to.
I have a number of 'black' friends in Australia (probably chocolate would be more appropriate vary from various polynesians, aboriginals and negros, and depending if you classify things that way Indians) even though the incidence of non-whites in Oz is quite low.
I am wondering if there is a deep psychological need for people to be surrounded by those they are familiar with. I do know various studies that show that stress levels and epinephrine and nor-epinephrine release is increased when people encounter unfamiliar faces, to the point that the adrenal glands increase in mass. I was wondering if there was a race base, or is it strictly cultural (upbringing) or what?
Probably not enough info here to find out, though, but it would be interesting to get a line on it.
* I am using 'tribe'here to mean similar cultural background etc. I don't know a better word, offhand.
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Post by Stil on Sept 7, 2005 11:26:56 GMT 7
I am wondering if there is a deep psychological need for people to be surrounded by those they are familiar with. I do know various studies that show that stress levels and epinephrine and nor-epinephrine release is increased when people encounter unfamiliar faces, to the point that the adrenal glands increase in mass. I was wondering if there was a race base, or is it strictly cultural (upbringing) or what? I really don't know. I don't feel this need though. I have gone farther and farther away from cities where most westerners are during my time in China. I think it might be more of what you are familiar with making you feel more comfortable. I grew up in an all-white city and was used to seeing all-white faces, I suppose that was my tribe. Now, I am used to Chinese faces and i don't feel uncomfortable at all. Sometimes I have to keep myself from staring at another foreigner like a local does. They just look so out of place! but I don't of course.  |
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LJ
Upstanding Citizen
One piston, 10,000 revs!
Posts: 63
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Post by LJ on Sept 7, 2005 14:29:20 GMT 7
Absolutely a language thing, nothing more.
I have friends from many countries in the world, and I'm proud of it. I'm interested in culture not skin pigmentation.
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Wolf
Charter Member and Old Chum
Though this be madness, yet there is method in it.
Posts: 1,150
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Post by Wolf on Sept 8, 2005 6:24:24 GMT 7
Actually, the three people I connected to most when I was offline in China were an African-American woman, an Indian guy (working at nearby unis), our teacher from Camaroon, two of my Chinese students, and my dean (not in that order.)
They were people who's thinking wavelength were most like mine, and yes they all had good English (obviously the three non-Chinese were as native speaker-ish as me.)
I think it's comfortable just to have friends. And when overseas, people who have recently arrived and do not speak the local lingo will naturally seek each other out (hence the overseas "Chinatowns" where many Chinese immigrants live together for mutual comfort; other ethnic groups do this too.)
It's not a bad thing by any means; but if one never grows beyond that I feel that is a missed opportunity.
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LJ
Upstanding Citizen
One piston, 10,000 revs!
Posts: 63
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Post by LJ on Sept 8, 2005 23:59:48 GMT 7
Yes, I try to go beyond that, but dislike baijiu and cigarettes!
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