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Post by icebear on Apr 14, 2006 2:56:26 GMT 7
So I've recently begun peppering various schools in China with my resume and relevant information. These have mostly been privates in Shenzhen and Shanghai, my primary choices, as well as some public instititutions in Hangzhou and Guangzhou. Let's ignore why I chose these particular cities to apply to initially, I'm certainly open to discussion on where to teach in another thread.
The responses I've gotten back have all asked for my teaching experience. I feel my resume is fairly clear with regards to this, that I have none! I'm going to graduate in May with my bachelors and have no teaching experience, save some very informal tutoring I did in math last year. Obviously newcomers start somewhere in China, but my question is where and how? I'd definitely prefer to be in a larger city (I've gotten some glowing unsolicited offers for rural areas, no thanks), but am wondering if experience is going to be absolutely necessary. As I mentioned to gengrant previously, I'd rather be where I want to be in year one as opposed to getting experience for a year in the sticks first. Is hope lost, am I applying too early in the season, or to the wrong places?
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Post by George61 on Apr 14, 2006 3:07:25 GMT 7
I dunno mate. It's been such a long time since I had "no experience". Probably a lot of schools would like to snap you up. You would be easier to control and manipulate. There's not much wrong with being out in the sticks, as long as it's not too far out. They tend to look after you a bit better. (generalisation, there) The whole country really is a bit like "suck it and see"
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Newbs
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Post by Newbs on Apr 14, 2006 4:50:35 GMT 7
The lack of experience doesn't just apply to China and it doesn't just apply to teaching. Once you're in, you're in, but until then...
And another thing. People gain experience at different rates. Some guy can be in a job for 20 years, but have done very little by way of new experiences. His CV will say 20 years experience but in reality he has very little. The opposite is true too.
In my case I've gained experience at different rates. When I was teaching in China I was on a sharp learning curve. I got back to Hoganland and the learning curve tapered off for a long time. Now, it's starting to pick up again.
So I reckon I'm saying that experience ain't just measured in number of years, but what use you've made of that time. I know this doesn't answer your question, and I'm damned sure that hell will freeze over before a school owner in China takes such a broadminded approach to the question of experience.
Check out one of Ozgronk's recent posts re private schools. It's in the Schools/Jobs Discussion Forum
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Post by Dr. Gonzo on Apr 14, 2006 5:21:12 GMT 7
Experience is one of the filters employers use, along with qualifications, to lessen the chances of hiring a dud. However, there are plenty of well qualified and experienced duds out there. Have you considered an option like EF? No one here would recommend them, but they do: - concentrate on the bigger cities. - employ newbies. - give you a syllabus and materials. Plus work you to the bone. But its an idea!
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Post by icebear on Apr 14, 2006 6:57:54 GMT 7
Thanks for the advice. And no, I wasn't considering EF. The only 'recruiter' or chain I've contacted seriously is New Times International, but that seemed to be a dead end concerning big cities. I'm fine with finding employment myself, its just a bit discouraging when everyone seems to ask first and foremost if you have 1 year of experience. Besides, doesn't EF require a TEFL?
I'm coming to China to work less, not more! I'll do a damn fine job at those few hours I work, mind you, but I'm not interested in breaking my neck to bring home a few hundred extra bucks.
"Senioritis" is seeping in fast and I'd rather just read about China than write about the military-industrial complex...
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gengrant
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Post by gengrant on Apr 14, 2006 7:35:18 GMT 7
icebear, have you had any luck with that contact i gave you in shenzhen? just curious...
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Non-Dave
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Post by Non-Dave on Apr 14, 2006 9:30:52 GMT 7
I reckon experience is a wonderful thing, but I think confidence in your ability to do the job is also pretty highly rated. You sound like you've got a bit of that.
Perhaps a re-write of the resume, focusing in a "positive" fashion on your teaching experience - tutoring, teaching sunday school, explaining how e-mail works to your father, whatever - if you know you can do the job make sure your resume sells the whole package - don't tell absolute porky pies but make sure you give them the picture in the best possible light.
Maybe a bit of volunteer teaching at an ESL school near home would help too.
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Post by OZgronk on Apr 14, 2006 9:56:26 GMT 7
There are so many schools over here, and so few Foreign Teachers, that really the requirements should be:
1. do you speak English, and 2. are you breathing and vertical?
Answers in the affirmative to one or both of these should get you into all but the most picky of the fine educational establishements over here, if not, don't even think about them.
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Post by Stil on Apr 14, 2006 11:46:22 GMT 7
There are so many schools over here, and so few Foreign Teachers, that really the requirements should be: 1. do you speak English, and 2. are you breathing and vertical? Answers in the affirmative to one or both of these should get you into all but the most picky of the fine educational establishements over here, if not, don't even think about them. Is this vertical business a new regulation in Hunan? I might be in trouble when I try to re-sign.
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Post by icebear on Apr 14, 2006 13:50:30 GMT 7
gengrant, I contacted him and he seemed enthusiastic, but said that any concrete moves would have to wait. I was told this by a few people, either concerning job availability in a month or the need to have my degree in hand, also in a month. I think your particular friend was in the latter category. I'll keep you posted if anything comes of it.
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Post by Mr Nobody on Apr 14, 2006 14:02:57 GMT 7
It may be they are waiting for the end of this term. But who knows? Maybe waiting for your quals. Usually they seem to not care as long as you WILL have them so they can photocopy them.
Did you tell them anything weird, like the full list of your body peircings and about your full body tattoos? Is your hair long? All of these list you as a foreign pervert, and put you slightly lower on the list, even though some places advertise that they 'welcome teachers to their college which has hundreds of young and beautiful unmarried girls'.
Go figure.
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Post by Norbert Radd on Apr 14, 2006 14:25:41 GMT 7
Does that last post mean I'm neglecting my duties as an instructor because I'm not doing my students?
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Post by Mr Nobody on Apr 14, 2006 16:35:10 GMT 7
I think it might depend on the college. My college would not go for it, unfortunately, since the girls here are plentiful, friendly and damned cute.
BUt I seriously saw an ad for a College a fair way outside of Dongguan, Guangdong, that said exactly this. I wonder what kind of teachers they think they will get? But then, it is in the middle of nowhere. Maybe they don't care for some reason or another.
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Post by joe on Apr 14, 2006 16:55:56 GMT 7
An ESL dork I met a year or so ago, a guy who had been on this game long enough to make his DELTA pay, said China would show it's colors as an ESL market in the next five years. Well, duh -- but it also means that a lot of what we here know is already starting to be out of date. It used to be that white people got jobs regardless. My colleagues have been chefs, factory supervisors, and former high school teachers. Some had experience before being hired.
These days I think Chinese schools do pay attention to resumes to a degree. How they pay attention is another issue, and it can depend on the time of year, and I still don't really understand it. I suspect that tertiary degrees are still much more readily understood than the various kinds of experience and its implications. Foreign teachers are still more often than not left out of the teaching loop to do sort of as they please in the classroom, and this is reflected in the attention paid to the original resumes. So experience is less an issue for the school, and more one for you. Are you ready for a classroom of inert Chinese children?
I first came to China with no esl experience and paid the price in humiliation and disrespect. I earned 3,200 per month in a small city normal college. At the end of the year I sent home as much as I did last week after nine months in my current, much better paid job.
In my humble opinion, heading for an important school in a richer city is asking to have your ass handed to you. The kids will have a strong opinion of your value and the value of your classes. You need to be able to do something with their understanding of the world. Poor kids (at least rich enough to attend school) in a poorer place want so much more from you that even with no experience you will still have something to give.
None of which should stand in your way if you have a strong idea of what you want to do in your target school and you've gone through some kind of certification process.
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woza17
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Post by woza17 on Apr 14, 2006 18:13:50 GMT 7
Joe sage advice. I never taught before I came to China and have built up a good rep after 3 years in Dongguan. A company want me to teach their employees, 250RMB an hour. I was offered the position because one of my students recommended me to their company. I am always researching new material looking for ways to improve the classes. In the language centres it's bums on seats. I have seen complete idiots but lots of personality, work hard and make a lot of money but the more astute students see through it. These guys burn out very quickly though. I agree with you on Daves people saying it's not possible and even when you say well I am doing it they don't believe you. People on this forum don't bullpoo and I think most of the posters on Dave's that post do. The ones that don't post don't bullpoo
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Post by Dragonsaver on Apr 14, 2006 18:18:07 GMT 7
Take a TEFL course before you come over. That gives you some teaching experience and prepares you for how to teach a student learning a new language. It doesn't have to be an expensive course, but take a course you actually have to take in a classroom. Second. Teaching experience. If you have taught anything, state it in your list of teaching experiences. You taught someone how to tie his shoe, it is practical life experience. I'm not saying pad your resume, but put legitimate experience in it. Tutoring counts. Many people don't realize that they do have teaching experience.
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Post by con's fly is open on Apr 14, 2006 19:19:17 GMT 7
I second Joe. You can get a job without experience, although finding one in a city will be harder, and a well-located, big city harder still. But I urge you to get some classroom experience before you come, whether it be practice time at a TEFL course or just volunteering somewhere. I came to China without any classroom experience, just tutoring, and the horrors of teaching pooty classes is an experience I wouldn't wish on anyone. It took me 2 months on the fly to become semi-competent; the new guys they hired walked in with no experience, but a TEFL certificate with classroom practice. They worked the bugs out of their teaching within a week or two.
Be wise Mandi, wise Chris, wise Greg, not stupid Con.
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Post by George61 on Apr 14, 2006 19:23:32 GMT 7
Even with experience, you have to adjust. Walking into a classroom with 60-80 kids is a new experience for most of us when we first get here. You have to decide how to engage them all...how to sort the sheep from the goats...how to re-adjust in a split second. As they say...It ain't Kansas"
Who says that?
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Post by acjade on Apr 14, 2006 19:37:58 GMT 7
I second that.
Teaching here is a different ball game and one that requires fexibility on a daily basis.
Which is why it's fun.
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Post by uberzilla on Apr 14, 2006 19:59:41 GMT 7
So here is another question. If you are good at this; does it get noticed. Or is it irrelevant?) In other words can pay increase do to competence?
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Post by George61 on Apr 14, 2006 20:07:17 GMT 7
Generalized reply.....NO! In some cases, maybe. But you will feel better about yourself.
Maybe that is the wine talking. I'm not sure.
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Post by acjade on Apr 14, 2006 20:07:39 GMT 7
In my experience yes. The jobs advertised are just the ice on top of the pond. As you walk the ice you also learn where to dig a hole and start to fish.
I will say, moreover, that competency as a teacher brings it's own rewards. I wouldna stay in a job that paid well if the mental and emotional rewards weren't there.
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Post by con's fly is open on Apr 14, 2006 20:17:02 GMT 7
It can make them more eager to keep you. This factor increases if the other FT's leave, or are dip(Perfectly understandable attempt by Raoul to evade the robo language cop - unfairly picked on, ain't he?)s.
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gengrant
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Post by gengrant on Apr 14, 2006 21:05:17 GMT 7
who says we ain't full of bullpoo? woza...you've been in China too long...you're starting to sound like "them."
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Post by uberzilla on Apr 14, 2006 23:32:38 GMT 7
I will say, moreover, that competency as a teacher brings it's own rewards. I wouldna stay in a job that paid well if the mental and emotional rewards weren't there. Competency, in anything productive, builds a healthy ego. Vacuous or mindless positions are, as you point out, deviod of an important part of potential reward. Principle is the only other factor involved in business. It is the one that is always the sticking point and it is principle that forces me to make a decision soon!!! thanks (all) for the feedback
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