Escaped Lunatic
Barfly
Civet Burger? Sounds tempting. Can I get fries with that?
Posts: 567
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Post by Escaped Lunatic on Jul 13, 2006 6:44:50 GMT 7
For those of you who've taught both at home and in China, what were the biggest differences in a Chinese classroom compared to what you were used to back in the US/Canada/UK/Aus/NZ/Etc.?
"We all agree that your theory is crazy, but is it crazy enough?" - Niels Bohr
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Post by Mr Nobody on Jul 13, 2006 9:33:26 GMT 7
It's a quantum leap. Main difference for me is that I used to teach kung fu, here I teach English.
Sorry.
my experience is limited to a few colleges, but here:
Ok, blackboards are chalk so there is dust everywhere, most colleges the floor has rubbish on it piled in the corners and aisles, there are twice as many students, and the students get to vote on whether you can stay next term or not. Few of the students will say anything. They don't take notes etc, just listen, but their memory is very good. They don't need to because only the exam means anything, and the exams are all walked through prior to being given it, sometimes by handing out copies.
Cheating and copying isn't considered immoral or wrong, and sayng it confuses the hell out of a lot of them, because the Confucianist teaching method IS copying.
Things are changing, though.
Anything else?
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Post by icebear on Jul 13, 2006 13:43:59 GMT 7
For the better or worse?
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Post by Raoul Duke on Jul 13, 2006 14:09:34 GMT 7
Both. Some things seem to be getting better, but education is becoming increasingly competitive for students- and increasingly lucrative for school operators. Therefore, the greed, corruption, and compromising of standards are only increasing. Another difference is that in Western classrooms, students are expected to at least pretend to be quiet and pay attention to the class. In Chinese classrooms students talk openly, use mobile phones, read books/magazines/newspapers, play GameBoys, or just shut down for a nice nap. But I promise you they don't do these things very long in MY classes.
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Newbs
SuperDuperBarfly!
If you don't have your parents permission to be on this site, naughty, naughty. But Krusty forgives
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Post by Newbs on Jul 13, 2006 14:57:54 GMT 7
Another difference is that in Western classrooms, students are expected to at least pretend to be quiet and pay attention to the class. In Chinese classrooms students talk openly, use mobile phones, read books/magazines/newspapers, play GameBoys, or just shut down for a nice nap. Umm, Raoul, I agree with you, 'cept your description of the Western classroom fitted my Chinese classroom, and vice versa. Maybe Hoganland kids are intent on having a good time, before they grow up to be good little Georges and Lotuses. Or maybe I'm just a krap teacher. Anyhoo, since returning to Hoganland I've come to appreciate all the opportunities we give the kids to be creative. (Not saying this is unique to Hoganland by any means) Couldn't see too many opportunities for creativity and independent thought in China, but. Next week a group of students from my old school in China is coming to the school I teach in at present in Hoganland. Should prove to be an interesting time, and I'll post observations here in a week or so.
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Post by phets72 on Jul 13, 2006 18:14:00 GMT 7
Interesting discussion.
I did some prac teaching in English back in Melbourne to some Korean students (university) and of course have just completed my first term up here in Heilonjong province (primary, middle and high school).
I have found that there are lots of kids who are very overwhelmed that you are there and want to know you, take you home to meet the family and friends and feed you like you where a king. You don't find that in Australia, generally. You do find high schoolers going to sleep, listening to their mp3 or not just giving a crap - this you would find in Australia.
You don't find high schoolers in Australia working incredible hours to try and get into University and the incredible expectations of parents. In Australia there would be anarchy (sorry for the spelling!). Nor would you find the kids scrubbing the floors and walls like slavery. I can recall seeing this for the first time and thinking I would just cry.
Steph
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Post by Mr Nobody on Jul 13, 2006 23:23:55 GMT 7
Chinese teachers have told me they don't want to stop them using phones, gameboys, reading comics etc because they feel that the students will vote them out of a job at the end of the contract if they do. So, that is why the Chinese teachers don't do anything and why the students can't believe it when you do it, and why they have a habit of it.
I am trying to get the teachers to understand that the students won't go against some discipline, they will appreciate it if the classes actually accomplish something. Plus, they can always return the phone etc after class. "Surely the students don't mind learning?", he asks, naively.
I'm working on it.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Jul 13, 2006 23:51:34 GMT 7
Yeah, this is one of the many problems with Chinese schools.
They want happy students and happy parents, at least when tuition time rolls around. In many places the students can vote you off the island if you had the audacity to actually expect performance and behavior from them. Failing a student is really difficult to make stick, since it of course creates an unhappy student with unhappy parents who don't really care to pay again to give young Zhang here a second chance at being conscious during his English Conversation 3 class.
It's a mixed bag for the school, though, because failure might mean another round of tuition if the parents go for it, or even better a lovely fat under-the-table bribe to simply change the grade. In this case EVERYONE is happy. Except, of course, for you...and you don't matter here.
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Post by ObertonGluek on Jul 14, 2006 1:27:24 GMT 7
Very interesting thread this. ... it makes me scared. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little nervous, especially since I have never taught before. Deep inside, I think I will do the job very well and the students will enjoy themselves, but I just don't know what to expect really. So, I'll have to see when I get there. Are the majority of students interested in learning English? Are there any major differences between age ranges? I'll be teaching anything from 6, to 16yr olds so I guess my week will be exciting to say the least.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Jul 14, 2006 2:02:01 GMT 7
You SHOULD be scared. Chinese education is pretty much a whorehouse, especially in the high school and university levels. Double that if you're at a "foundation school" or joint venture with a foreign university...the very places you'd think would be better. That's one reason I love corporate training. No grades, no lives made or broken on the results, no whining and begging to "give me a chance", nobody greasing the headmaster's palms to change a result. No headmaster, for that matter. No kids. No papers to grade. Good pay and hot babes. It's not all gravy. I have to hustle hard to sell more classes. I have to deal with a lot of training managers and HR departments, some of which are right loons. I have to make a lot of calls sometimes to get an invoice paid. And, of course, I have to write a lot of textbooks. It's still hard work, and it's risky and erratic, but I wouldn't trade it for anything. I'm risky and erratic, too. Most students are genuinely interested in English at various points in their lives. If the teacher is good with kids, small children love it and some can become astoundingly fluent. By about 2nd or 3rd grade it starts becoming continuously less interesting...by the eighth grade or so they'd rather plunge long, red-hot steel needles directly into both their eyes than pay any attention to you. By the 11th grade you've mutated into a bizarre form of lizard making alien squawking noises at the front of the classroom. By university level you begin to become more amusing than threatening (except around exam time, of course, when Ass-Kissing Season breaks out), but you are still nothing to take terribly seriously. The ones that graduate go out and eventually find jobs, encounter foreign bosses/colleagues/customers/etc., and realize that after 15 years of English classes they couldn't speak a complete, intelligible sentence in English if you held a gun to their heads. Their careers are on the line, and Daddy can't buy them out of it any more. Then they become really interested in learning English again. If the teacher is good with adults, adults love it and some can become astoundingly fluent. I mainly address mainstream public education here. If you're in a private English mill, the attitude for their age will carry over pretty directly except that the older kids, sick to death of school, will tend to take you even less seriously than they do their public school teachers. If that's possible. There are exceptions throughout this cycle, of course; I'm speaking for the mainstream here. There will be bright spots and slow freight at every level. A major exception will be the Children of the Rich and Stupid (see the foundation programs and joint ventures, above...)...many of these are just completely unreachable and couldn't possibly care any less.
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Post by Dr. Gonzo on Jul 14, 2006 3:35:45 GMT 7
As a teacher of 35 years in the secondary, tertiary and adult sectors........ That's the CV done with. The only generalisation I can make is that you can't generalise. Whilst all of the above is true on occasions, you'll have many individuals and even some classes who fly in the face of expectations. The very first class I taught in China, 9 years ago now, were wonderful. 2nd year English majors, only twenty in the class, I taught them in 3 subjects. They were more than prepared to think outside the square. As I was the only Westerner on campus, they took me under their wing [Chinese classes can develop an amazing degree of unity and cooperation, whereas in Western classes its rare for students to even know all their classmates names], and we spent a lot of time together in and out of school. Personally, I found my first stint in China refreshing, challenging and exciting. It caused a late shift in career as I then gained TESOL qualifications, and now work in the field at home. As for pedagogy, predictability [eg, they know you'll be on time. They must be too. They know you'll take a roll. If you set homework, you'll collect it. You'll base your lessons around the classic ESL teaching and learning cycle. You won't run "one-offs", teach them songs, or degrade yourself and your profession by arriving drunk or boning students] and variety are the keys. Break classes into several inter-related "mini" lessons. Don't do too much talking, unless you've been hired as a lecturer. Speaking, listening, reading, writing. Use English for realistic purposes. I had the class mentioned above in investment groups once a week, in which they played the Shanghai bourse, using China Daily and play money. They had to write a weekly report and deliver it to the class. Enough for one morning!
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Post by Ajarn on Jul 15, 2006 10:36:49 GMT 7
Chinese teachers have told me they don't want to stop them using phones, gameboys, reading comics etc because they feel that the students will vote them out of a job at the end of the contract if they do.
At three of the colleges where I have taught, Chinese teachers are eligible for an end-of-year bonus. One of the major factors in determining if a bonus will be awarded, and the amount of such bonus, is student approval.
Students log-on to the school's network and rate their teachers on a number of specified aspects. An overall rating of less than 90% can place a teacher's job in jeopardy, and between 90% - 100% determines the size of their bonus.
Foreign teachers are rated by students just the same but I've never been able to get any of the F.A.O.'s to tell me my rating.
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Post by Mr Nobody on Jul 15, 2006 19:21:59 GMT 7
wow, I get the whole lot, complaints, good comments, etc. But no score as such, they just tell me I am considered very popular and a good teacher.
I wonder how they can tell that? The students wouldn't know a good teacher if they fell over one. And I could improve my rating a lot if I just showed movies and slept all term. I make them work, and I am quite strict, but usually fair.
Maybe they appreciate someone who cares (I once told a student that if they just wanted to sit there all term and do nothing, I didn't care. After class, several of the students came up and said "We know you care. That's why you get angry when people don't do anything"
I felt pretty funny about that, I can tell you.)
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Post by Missi on Jul 15, 2006 20:02:27 GMT 7
I was never a teacher in Canada, but I was a student a lot.
At the beginning of the year we set rules. If I have to follow the rules so do my students. One of the rules are, "If I see it, it mine" this goes for gameboys, edictionaries, MP3's, camera's, phones and a lot more. By the end of the first term, I have a box full of various items that I have taken from the students. I only return them if the student explains why I took them away.
The parents don't complain, they congratulate me on my ability as a teacher. And I am invited back year after year to teach at the same school.
Students do not sleep in my class, its just not done.
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gengrant
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Post by gengrant on Jul 17, 2006 22:06:06 GMT 7
yep, I had one student threaten to jump out a window (while throwing a temper tantrum) because I took his toy away from him and refused to give it back during class (gave it back 3 days later)...this was one of many things I had to do "to" him during the course of the semester...at the end, he hugged me and told me I was his favorite student.
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Post by ObertonGluek on Jul 17, 2006 23:24:35 GMT 7
Say you see a student using an MP3 player, and it goes:
You: Give me that. Him: No.
... then what "power" do you have as a teacher? Can you send them down to the principal (or similar) and get them into trouble? In which case, they'll certainly give it up if you tell them where they're going otherwise.
I know that in Japan, the foreign teacher's have no real power, and they can't send the kids out of class.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Jul 18, 2006 0:00:01 GMT 7
I send them out of class. I just stand there and stare at them until they leave. Then I mark them absent...at least. Usually embarrassment works better than anything a Chinese school admin will ever do. Note to self: never work in Japan.
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Post by cheekygal on Jul 18, 2006 0:39:47 GMT 7
I just take things away. Normally they give them to me. Because the agreement is that they get it after the class. Once I was so mad about a child playing with the phone, that when his mom called during the class, I grabbed the phone, answered it and told mom NOT TO CALL DURING CLASSES.
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Post by Dr. Gonzo on Jul 18, 2006 2:50:35 GMT 7
I've never had a student, in China or Australia, NOT hand over their toy.......eventually. Must be something to do with the way I start to twitch. I actually scored 2 phones off one boy in one lesson, but he was special. His father had bribed the Pres to let little "Raoul" [which WAS his English name] in. Chinese teachers dared not fail him, let alone take his phone. Thankfully, he didn't hug me.
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Post by Mr Nobody on Jul 18, 2006 8:51:00 GMT 7
I just take them, or chuck the book out the window. If they don't leave, I stop the class until they leave. That usually isn't an issue. Yeah, embarrassment works best. And shame, like what would their parents think?
I have only found one guy that doesn't work on. I am going to have to try something else this term, I will have him again.
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Post by Mr Nobody on Jul 19, 2006 15:30:29 GMT 7
I have the support of the Dean et al for that. In fact, it was the assistant Dean who said, chuck the book out the window, and the student out of the class. I guess I got a good school.
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Post by hankuh on Jul 19, 2006 21:51:02 GMT 7
Biggest differences in my experience of teaching college students in China as compared to teaching college students here in the states, but bear in mind these differences depend on where one is in China: 1. The vast majority of students tended to be passive. This passivity was proportional to class enrollment: the larger the class, the greater the passivity, and the more chatting among themselves. 2. Short attention spans: I know English is their second language; learning a second language isn't a cake walk by any means. Yet, overall, there was a severe short attention span ; yes, I can possibly chalk this up to my boring persona, but too many times, students were looking for the "entertainment factor" or the "personal relevation of living in China" of the foreigner, the dirt on his Chinese spouse, or why China is better than the US, etc. and when all of that wasn't happening, i.e. focusing on the subject matter and what I was paid to do?, the majority quickly lost interest. 3. Blatantly, obviously, so obvious it was almost too funny, CHEATING, rampant, unabated, and sometimes assisted by Chinese teachers, Chinese proctors, and the glorious Party Secretary. This was the big kill. I couldn't decide if the students thought I was just inherently stupid or that they believed that cheating was acceptable and how dare a foreigner even attempt to prevent such a thing. 4. Failing grades as hurtful as they may seem to students, will be rectified in the end: a student who is failed by the foreign teacher will inevitably retake the final exam from a Chinese teacher before graduating, and the final exam will be so primal easy that passing is assured. 5. The whole cellphone, mp3 players, newspapers, magazines, and comic books display by students during class was strictly forbidden, but that didn't stop a few . I confiscated them, threw some out the window on a really bad day, and overall, was hated for it, and some of the students' attitude bordered on indignant surprise that I would do such a thing. You get used to the later if you stay long enough and really do your job of teaching. 6. The rewards of teaching lie with the few Chinese students who are earnest in the desire to truly learn--not just for the exam's sake--and improve themselves in their knowledge of English and other relevant courses without giving a rat's flip about the rest of their peers or politics. Those are the real treasures, and if I may say so, I admired them fervently and pitied them deeply. Now, that's what I really miss (besides, the cheap haircuts, the yang rou chuan, the cheap beer delivery to my door, the beautiful women, the palaces of pink lights.......
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Post by Lotus Eater on Jul 20, 2006 15:45:50 GMT 7
Sorry Koko and others who throw stuff- I find this a bit less than professional.
Each semester I set out the rules - including the BIG one that says that they are responsible for their own education (I work at University level) and therefore if they choose not to come to class, I have NO problem with this. If they fail because they haven't come - too bad. But if they can pass by working in the Library, researching etc - then that's pretty much how I passed a couple of my subjects when I was at uni as well.
If they come to class they have then agreed to participate fully in the class, and so, no shouji, MP3, newspapers etc etc, no sleeping. I gently tap the first student who falls asleep on the shoulder as I am walking around the room, ask him (usually a guy) if he wants to return to his dorm and finish his sleep. The class all stare/laugh at him - doesn't happen again.
Same thing with reading newspapers or using electronic devices - although I am happy for e-dictionaries - I love them for ME! I walk up to them, ask them politely if they need to be elsewhere doing other things. They return to work and it seems to have the right effect. Very rare after that do I have to do anything.
So far I haven't needed to shout or toss students out.
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Post by hankuh on Jul 20, 2006 18:57:30 GMT 7
And I find such a response by you not very convincing, maybe even unprofessional in itself, because you seem not willing to acknowledge that perhaps the various posters' experiences of teaching in a classroom in China differs from yours.
Teaching in China in a classroom has a host of difficulties and joys, and these all differ from public middle schools, 3rd, 4th, even 5th tier public colleges and universities and the private language mills.
As a FOREIGN teacher, the difficulties can manifest themselves from outside the classroom as well as inside the classroom, and all of this depends on where one is in China and for whom one works.
Sometimes, taking the lion by the balls works to communicating to students whom otherwise would continue in this behavior, but also, choosing to take such actions depends on the caliber of students in your class, their language abilities, and their earnest desire to either learn or at the very least respect you and your rules.
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Post by Raoul Duke on Jul 20, 2006 19:36:55 GMT 7
Kids, be nice back there. Don't make me turn this car around!
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