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Post by Lone Traveller on Dec 9, 2006 19:35:20 GMT 7
I admit that I've never really been interested in politics before. I think because it is/can be such an emotive issue. Most times, the conversations tend to end up becoming personal attacks, that conclude with either someone crying or very strong feelings of hate emanating. However, I've really enjoyed keeping up with this thread. It's interesting to hear different points of view, but I also like hearing/seeing why a particular person takes that stance. It certainly has given me a lot to think about. Thanks. L.T
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Post by con's fly is open on Dec 10, 2006 13:23:45 GMT 7
G-string, I applaud your tact. We've had guys of conservative leanings here before, and debates have all descended into flaming. Frankly, these guys were almost all assholes- one responded to a very friendly and diplomatic post from me by replying "Sorry, but I hate Canada." i mean, what do you do with that? I'm pleased with my fellow drunks for their restrain, too. We're all a little leery of conservative views here, not for the views themselves but for the aforementioned bungholes who ruined it for everyone. So this round's my shout. Back to thread: I think it's dangerous to compare Sweden's immigration policy with Australia's. Sweden's tucked away up north, while Oz is sailing distnce from Indonesia. Every country has the right to regulate the influx of population- this is simple self defense. To the scandals of the refugee camps, I defer to those who know what they're talking about. To aboriginal issues, I'd offer Canada's parallel. Our first round of racism was to betray them after they helped us fight off the Yanks in 1812 and kicked them off their land, expecting them to transition to farming. Our second was to "civilize" them, shipping their kids off to boarding schools and forbidding them to speak their own language, thus destroying their family unit. Our third was to try to resurrect their tribal system, giving their chiefs absolutel control over government money, creating incredibly corrupt dictatorships on every reservation. We spend billions of dollars every year on Indian Affairs, and things just aren't improving for them. On John Howard: Any guy who makes a virtue of never admitting his mistakes is a brittle, crooked weasel who should never wield power. Is he racist? No insight here. Any leader who balances the budget and keeps the government living within its means has has done 40 percent of his job with that one achievement. but bear in mind this is not a virtues of the Left or Right- just look at Dubya. In Canada, as another example, the NDP (socialist), Liberal (centrist) and Consevative (Right) have all run up terrible debts on some occasions, made brilliant and painful coups of balancing budgets on other occasions. If Howard's put Oz's guv in the black, then please give the devil his due. Lastly, the evidence posted shows this guy knowingly promoting the patently false as truth. I can't tone down the word Sleazebag to describe that. Provided everyone can keep this pleasant, I'm dying to hear more. I know so little about Oz, and I'm a political junkie. Plus the parallels with Canuckistan intrigue me. BARKEEP! Round of Fosters! Qingdao for me.
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Clover
Up And Coming
Posts: 24
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Post by Clover on Dec 10, 2006 17:57:03 GMT 7
The Irish know this story well. Treated like vermin in our own country. Four hundred years of it.
But we've come into our own again. And Oliver Cromwell is still blistering his balls in hell.
Which is no consolation at all to the indigenous aborigines of Australia or the Canadian indian people.
However I don't like being kneaded in the same ' white fella' dough as the people who design the policies of disenfranchisment and alienation. Lot of 'white fellas' have suffered and still suffer under the repressive systems.
The Irish had to collectively pull their fingers out to overcome the powerlessness, the depression, the drunkedness and poverty to which they had grown accustommed. And I'm not talking the rabble filth of the IRA here. I mean ordinary, everyday people who'd rather get to the pub for a bit of craic than bring harm to another living soul.
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Post by Vegemite on Dec 12, 2006 9:59:51 GMT 7
I don't like being kneaded in the same ' white fella' dough as the people who design the policies of disenfranchisment and alienation. Lot of 'white fellas' have suffered and still suffer under the repressive systems. I totally agree - that's the problem with labelling and stereotypes, mass generalisations and ponitifcation...etc The answers and the problems are never simple, never black and white...that is, if there ever is one answer or one problem.
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Post by The G-Stringed Avenger on Dec 12, 2006 11:29:37 GMT 7
Thanks all. This is a good thread.
Con, I don't really consider myself a conservative as such. In fact, Chris Rock summed it up best - "I'm conservative on some things, and liberal on others. Crime - conservative. Prostitution - VERY liberal!"
I feel the same. On the liberal side, I support abortion rights, gay rights, a harm minimisation drug policy (injecting rooms, etc.), no religion in schools and so on but I also, maybe surprisingly to some (!), do support Australia's current immigration policy - well, not on environmental grounds, but otherwise as is. But do I support harsh punishments for criminals? Deportation for those foreign citizens preaching hatred and terrorism to young people? Hell yes! So, I'm a little conservative, and a little liberal. It's impossible to be only one or the other on all things. Anyone who claims to be is simply married to their principles against all reason.
I compare Australia's immigration policy with Sweden's in response to a previous poster who pointed out the more humane approach taken by the Swedes - but the results have been less than desirable.
Here's an article from a Swedish newspaper:
Plain speech by the Malmö Police: It's all going to hell!
– When you are a policeman you see the consequences of the decisions made by our politicians in a very real way. The immigration policy of Sweden is basically a total failure. Moreover, this experiment is costing enormous sums each and every year. Politicians are now afterwards trying to patch and mend, coming up with various ideas and measures. But it's totally obvious to every thinking human being that it is about to go to hell – in plain speech.
A commentary from Folkets Nyheter's editorial staff on the interview with a Malmö policeman
These are the words of a chief police officer who has been working for many years in Malmö, to Folkets Nyheter, about his work situation which has changed dramatically in those years. And he is perfectly clear on what it is that has caused these negative changes.
Malmö is one of Sweden's most immigrant dense cities, 40 percent of the inhabitants are of an entirely foreign background. And just as in many of the other cities of the country, serious violence and robbery, and the fear among Swedes to fall victim to these crimes, has become a part of everyday life in Malmö.
Sydsvenskan, a news paper circulated in the southern Swedish province of Skåne where Malmö is situated, claimed in an editorial earlier this year that democracy in Sweden is intact and that debate is practically unconstrained. Yet, Folkets Nyheter is forced to interview the police man anonymously, in order not to put him in jeopardy of losing his job.
– These days, we have neither freedom of speech nor opinion in Sweden, comments the police man. As long as you think the way the political power elite does, you're welcome to a career, but otherwise? Just look at what happened to my colleague.
The colleague being referred to is Malmö policeman Bengt Lindström who was fired by the National Police Board this year after criticising the consequences of mass immigration, such as the lack of proper community services for the elderly in Malmö. A decision that naturally has had an impact on a major segment of the police force, the policeman says.
– No officer today dares utter any criticism in these matters, neither on duty nor as a private citizen. You are first and foremost concerned about your employment and your livelihood. The National Police Board made an example out of sacking Lindström: ”Don't criticise or you'll lose your job!”
– The number of cases involving serious violence committed against citizens in public places has increased substantially since the beginning of the 90's when I started working in Malmö. It's almost exclusively immigrant youth that are the perpetrators behind robberies and assaults in public places. This is well-documented but the authorities responsible for the situation do not want to go public about it. Because it would contradict the integration propaganda of our government, they choose to keep silent.
– And the number of rapes has risen dramatically as well, which has to do with the fact that over 40 percent of Malmö's inhabitants have a different ethnic background where the men's power over women is absolute. Their view on women is so totally alien to us Swedish men and they continue living according to their own culture, paying no attention to the circumstance that they are in a different country where their own ones are in force. Unfortunately this behaviour is reinforced by Swedish authorities and courts of justice, which in their sentences take into account the ethnic culture of the suspect.
The policeman also confirms the negative way in which police and other emergency services are greeted in the suburbs of Malmö.
– Many immigrants have no respect for the police whatsoever. Many times you're treated like you've come to collect the garbage. Immigrants have so far only encountered representatives from the immigration and social services. They are used to being stroked the right way and having all of their demands satisfied.
– Certain routine matters, like checking an immigrant's driving license in Rosengård (transl. note. an infamous immigrant suburb of Malmö), easily get out of hand and become a major event where all available police sources have to intervene to restore the order. Thanks to cellphones a lot of ”supporters” join the scene in a very short time when you intervene in Rosengård. If you stop a car for a routine check, soon the whole clan show up to oppose the police.
Hmmm, that last bit sounds familiar... Auburn and Lakemba, the suburbs of Paris...
The fact is, moral relativism, appeasement of ethnic groups, policing that backs down in the face of ethnic protest... it all sends things downhill in a big way.
Immigration is not the problem... unbalanced, unchecked, overly rapid immigration is. Especially when many of the immigrants do not share the values of the host country. My main point is that immigration must be well-managed. If not, you have problems.
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Post by The Canink on Dec 12, 2006 11:48:43 GMT 7
I agree with you GSA. I am highly suspicious of anybody who is "liberal" or "conservative" or "libertarian" or whatever. I'm fiscally conservative. I'm socially liberal (because I'm fiscally conservative). I'm morally libertarian. And so on. Anybody who identifies purely by a single political camp is a person I'm going to view with intense scrutiny and will likely not trust in the long haul.
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Post by George61 on Dec 12, 2006 15:21:28 GMT 7
To put this thread back on it's proper rails.........
Bid to give blind Texans right to hunt
Austin, Texas December 12, 2006 - 11:37AM
A Texas lawmaker is aiming to allow the blind to hunt.
Texas State Representative Edmund Kuempel has introduced a measure that would allow blind people to hunt any game that sighted people can currently pursue.
He hopes it will be passed after the legislature reconvenes in January though he does not expect it to come into affect until 2008.
"This opens up the fun of hunting to additional people, and I think that's great," Kuempel told Reuters.
The bill may find little resistance in Texas, where politicians of all stripes endorse hunting, which is wildly popular in the state.
Under the bill, blind hunters would be required to have a sighted hunter with them and would be allowed to use laser sights and other devices that are currently not allowed.
"A blind person can shoot a rifle by mounting an offset pistol scope on the side of the rifle instead of on top," said Terry Erwin, the Austin-based Hunter Education Coordinator with the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department.
"This allows their companion behind them to peer over their shoulder and help them sight it, but the blind person can pull the trigger," he told Reuters.
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Post by George61 on Dec 12, 2006 15:23:28 GMT 7
And another one. It must be silly season in Texas!!
Free gun with every house offer
Houston, Texas December 12, 2006 - 11:41AM
A Texas real estate agent looking to add more bang to her business is offering clients in law enforcement a free Glock pistol if they buy a home from her.
Julie Upton, a Houston-area real estate agent, spurned traditional buyer incentives like free petrol cards or home improvement store gift certificates.
Instead, she placed an advertisement offering a pistol with the purchase of any home worth at least $US150,000 ($A191,558) in the city police department's monthly publication, Badge & Gun.
The free guns are only for those in law enforcement, said Upton, who is married to a police officer.
"We thought it would be a good way to entice other police officers," Upton said. "And whether people want the gun or not, it has stirred up a lot of attention."
Upton has given away two pistols to police officers who purchased homes from her. The guns cost about $US500 ($A638).
And so far the advertisement has not generated negative attention from the anti-gun lobby, she said.
In Texas, no licence is required to own a rifle, shotgun or handgun, but a permit is needed to carry a concealed weapon, according to the National Rifle Association.
Reuters
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Post by The G-Stringed Avenger on Dec 12, 2006 18:37:25 GMT 7
Heh, Texas. Do they have "The Silly State" on their numberplates, I wonder?
Just watched a rousing speech online by Brigitte Gabriel, a Christian refugee from the Lebanese civil war who now lives in America. Her insights into Islamic fundamentalism and the nature of Islam itself, the so-called "moderate muslims", terrorism and the role played by our own media and elites in the spread of Islamofascism were breathtaking. This is a woman who needs listening to.
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Post by Lotus Eater on Dec 13, 2006 6:38:59 GMT 7
I generally have problems with Fox as a news source - for me they seem to present a more sensational view of whatever is happening. So I went looking for other hopefully more reliable sources on the Malmo issue. There are several that present a more balanced view.
I also found it intersting that students from Malmo University were writing papers researching the Australian situation with refuggees and asylum seekers! The Mayor of Malmo also made an interesting presentation in September looking at the Malmo model and how it actually operates.
The only sources I could find that were clearly opposed to this model were those from Fox.
And when we consider the rioting and problems in Australian detention centres I don't think our treatment of refugees and asylum seekers is in any way a model that would induce good behaviour now or in the future.
Other research I found also notes that a number of boats are crippled on leaving port so that they are only capable of travelling fora day or so, making them and their passengers vulnerable to pirates. It was also made clear that the Australian government knows of this practice. {There was an innuendo within that report that the Australian Government actually approved of this, so that they couldn't make territorial waters - that one I truly hope isa beat up!}
Further research shows that approximately 30% of asylum seekers, refugeess are tortured, raped, beaten and treated very badly within the refugee camps and prior to their becoming refugees. Adding bad treatment to this situation by countries where they flee to for safety seems to me to be an appalling thing to do.
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Post by The G-Stringed Avenger on Dec 13, 2006 12:44:41 GMT 7
But who tortures, rapes and treats the people in these camps very badly? If the Palestinian camps are anything to go by, it's the refugees themselves, preying on their own. The Palestinian camps are like mini sovereign nations, and Israeli soldiers enter at their own peril, unless in massive force. With the scrutiny on Australian detention centres, it seems unlikely that the staff are going all out to make life hell for the detainees.
The article you posted, LE, is certainly a different perspective. However, I am leery of politicians - who usually create the problems - blandly assuring us all is well. It's unlikely you'll see the mayor (assuming he's affiliated with the ruling party in Sweden) getting up there and saying "Hey, we m'kayed up. Our policies have failed. Oh, and by the way, feel free to vote us out at the next election." Never happen!
And the rightist parties in Sweden seem a lot more balanced upstairs than the leftists. Compare their views - Rightists: Let people in, but make sure they can support themselves and contribute positively.
Leftists: Let anyone in, give them money, excuse any anti-social behaviour as "cultural differences", and attack, castigate, villify and charge anyone who disagrees as a racist, a neo-Nazi or a [insert insult here].
Back to the first point, assuming a group of anti-social detainees is causing problems for their fellows, is it better that we have them locked up or have them running free? Yes, it's unfair on the majority who would most probably abide by our laws, but one drug deal, one murder, rape or assault by a released detainee is one too many. That's not fear talking. A thug in a detention centre will be a thug no matter where he is. Detention just gives him and his supporters a convenient out for his behaviour.
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Post by The G-Stringed Avenger on Dec 15, 2006 12:16:53 GMT 7
Kudos, Tamworth!
A town accepts 12 Sudanese. Refugees? Most likely. Pretty soon, most of them are before the courts. Yer average woolly-headed liberal would have you believe that their crimes are just "cultural differences", "justified reactions to the horrible racism and discrimination of the white Establishment", "a result of having racist police on the beat" or "a result of being traumatised in the past". Tell that to the rape victim.
Well, m'kay all that. Let's call a spade a spade. These people weren't checked out properly and now they're causing trouble. This situation encapsulates the real reasons why Australians often have a problem with immigration. It's nothing to do with racism and everything to do with our tolerance being spat upon.
Tamworth rejects Sudanese refugees Friday Dec 15 15:38 AEDT A group of Sudanese refugees has been refused residence in Australia's most "Friendly Town" because of fears they could spark a repeat of the race riots that gripped Sydney a year ago.
Tamworth city officials said on they had rejected residency for five Sudanese families because they could stir racial unrest in the city, 260 km northwest of Sydney.
"We need to change the (refugee) programme significantly because of the cultural difference of African people, things such as their respect of women in their community," Mayor James Treloar told Reuters, dismissing fears of a divisive race row.
Tamworth in January hosts Australia's largest country music festival and recently won a tourism award naming the busy rural hub as the country's premier "Friendly Town".
But Treloar said local people and some "redneck elements" had aired concerns at a council meeting about 12 other Sudanese already living in the city, saying most had come before local courts for crimes ranging from dangerous driving to rape.
"They will not take a direction from authorities, so we've got a fairly significant cultural problem," he said, adding that health services for Tamworth's 40,000 population were already stretched.
Local churches said they would launch a petition calling on the council to reverse its decision, which was a response to an immigration department programme to resettle refugees in regional areas to help reverse a drift of Australians to major cities.
Several councillors and business leaders said they would try to overturn the decision, arguing that the arrival of the refugees would not fuel the kind of tensions that led to last December's Sydney beach riots where mainly-white surfers battled Lebanese-Australians.
"It will reflect on Tamworth and I feel it will be somewhat of a negative effect. To say that we can't provide for another five families is I think a bit ridiculous," said Tamworth Chamber of Commerce Chief Executive Officer Max Cathcart.
Australia is a nation of immigrants, with nearly one in four of the country's 20 million people born overseas. Almost six million people have settled in the country since 1945 and Australia plans to accept about 144,000 new immigrants in 2006-07.
But the government is concerned the rapid transformation could fuel tensions and recently announced new citizenship tests to force new citizens to pass an English-language test and questions on Australian values such as "mateship".
If the government is so concerned, then why the record intakes? Seems a little strange.
In any case, 30% of immigrants come from NZ, UK and South Africa. Another 40% are from China and India. All groups have a good track record of integrating. Most immigrants these days are skilled migrants... professionals, businesspeople and so on. I'm kind of convinced the government's fears are exaggerated.
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Post by Dr. Gonzo on Dec 16, 2006 2:58:19 GMT 7
Well, I don't know. I live in Adelaide, which has 25X the population of Tamworth, where they like both kinds of music: country AND western. The local Adelaide media enjoys a beat-up, but I've seen nothing involving any African refugees in court. It's generally young male Australians, usually in some kind of alcohol/drug/violence scenario. And I did have the privilege of working in adult migrant education on returning from China. Africans from a dozen different countries were model students, be they Darfur farmers covered in scars, or Rwandan professionals. Their gratitude at getting a second chance at life was boundless.
But these are just personal impressions based on personal experience: anecdotal, I guess.
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Newbs
SuperDuperBarfly!
If you don't have your parents permission to be on this site, naughty, naughty. But Krusty forgives
Posts: 2,085
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Post by Newbs on Dec 16, 2006 14:17:45 GMT 7
Well, a bit more anecdotal stuff from my neck of the woods. There's a fair Sudanese presence in my suburb, and I can not recall a single incident involving Sudanese breaking the law. We only have 3 community newspapers in our 1 little suburb, and I reckon at least one of them would have picked up a story involving one of the new "outsiders" coming in and breaking the law. But, so far, absolutely nothing.
The Tamworth story got some airplay last night. The police chief refused to single out the Sudanese as a group causing concern in the town, locals who were interviewed didn't have any problems with them, and one of the Sudanese who has settled there said he loved the place, although you wonder why when he gets a welcome such as he did from the mayor.
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