|
Post by MK on Sept 20, 2005 9:48:58 GMT 7
I dunno if this should be in weird gets going, but I thought that those of us trying to learn the language could post some stuff about our experiences here, maybe some hints and tips.
I have already asked Ilunga to tell us about his time studying full time in Xi-an. I think it would be pretty interesting, for me at least, just to see how the course is organised and taught...is it mostly rote learning? any communicative stuff? Anybody else done an actual structured course in China or abroad?
I have mostly studied by myself with a book at home, and have done the one on one language exchange thing a bit too. Am slowly learning the characters at the moment, and I have to review the whole lot (about 350 now) regularly or they leak right out of my head.
It's also quite frustrating for me right now in that my speaking and listening is way above my reading and writing, and I don't feel i am making much progress. (So, get started on those characters early is my top-tip.)
I'll add more later, but I hope some of you have stuff to add too...
|
|
Ruth
SuperDuperMegaBarfly
God's provisions are strategically placed along the path of your obedience.
Posts: 3,915
|
Post by Ruth on Sept 20, 2005 16:26:14 GMT 7
Well, you're way ahead of me. I'm lazy. I have the Pimsleur method on CD. It works for me, but I have to listen to each lesson many times before it sinks in. And then of course put what I learn into daily use.
The phrases that have stuck with me the best are ones I learned from Chinese friends in real-life situations.
I'm focusing on understanding what I hear and speaking so that others can understand me. Reading and writing the language are a distant dream.
|
|
|
Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 20, 2005 18:48:06 GMT 7
Oh, yeah, I got the pimsleur. Should I also bring it to Suzhou for people to copy? Took me one week to get to lesson 5 then the last 6 months to lesson 5.
|
|
|
Post by ilunga on Sept 20, 2005 19:59:45 GMT 7
This is my third week of studying full-time in Xi'an. I'm pretty much starting from the beginning (dunces class) as I never really made the effort to learn while I was teaching. My vocab is decent enough but my speaking could do with some tweaking and my reading/writing is almost non-existent. I'm pleased with the classes so far, and the good thing is they give you 2-3 weeks to see if you like it before you have to stump up the readies (I haven't paid yet). Apparently there are 300 foreign students here but I haven't seen half that many. The 'Chinese refesher programme' is split into six levels. I think students in classes 4-6 can sit the HSK test. I'm aiming to hit class four in 18 months time. There are 18 fifty minute classes a week. 8-12am monday to friday. There are optional courses like chinese history and calligraphy. The classes are split into reading, speaking and listening. A different teacher for each. Listening classes bore me a bit but the teacher is cute so it's just about bearable. I'm learning a lot from the speaking and reading classes. Overall, it's a good experience. There's a good vibe here. Not too many foreigners, just about the right amount. A lot of those are koreans, some of them are really cool. With their English not being so great, it gives me the opportunity to converse in chinese with non-chinese people. I would defeinitely recommend studying in Xi'an, as opposed to Beijing or other big cities. Ok, taxi drivers and the like will often speak to you in Shaanxi hua but that's the only negative, and there are enough people around who are more than willing to practice with you. Oh and of course, deciding factor - Xi'an is cheap. Even on 'bar street' you can get 10 kuai beers. Taxis, food, rent - also dirt cheap. And there are lots of oportunities to teach on the side. I've been approached three times already with offers of work. Sounds like a bit of a pitch but MK asked if I'd write about my experience studying here, and it's all good.........so far. Apart from the power going off this afternoon
|
|
|
Post by Lotus Eater on Sept 21, 2005 7:05:30 GMT 7
One of the things I have discovered with my speaking is (surprise surprise) is that I have been speaking Chinese in an English way. I listen to Chinese people speaking and they speak so fast that I figure I needed to increase my speed - but what happens is I stop making any sense!
My Chinese friends have started pointing out to me that I speak 2 or 3 character words the way I would speak a 2 or 3 syllable word in English. But Chinese doesn't do it that way - the characters are still separate, so zhidao (to know) isn't zhidao, it it zhi dao. Zhi1 dao4. Speed has nothing to do with it.
My friends tell me they can understand me - because they know me, My students tell me I don't speak putonghua or Shaanxihua - I speak Lotushua! And everywhere I go the locals try to teach me to speak Shaanxihua - I have a couple of phrases down, but don't want to confuse myself too much!
The other FT and I are getting more serious about our study - spent nearly 6 hours on it last night - and that was just one chapter in my book. But I get interested in the characters, look them up with different radicals, find other words I want to know about and so everything takes longer!!
Don't know if that's any help.
|
|
auflos
Up And Coming
Posts: 12
|
Post by auflos on Sept 21, 2005 11:12:45 GMT 7
Does anyone in Beijing have the pimsleur? I brought what I thought was a set but it turned out to be cantonese (guess I can't read English either) The last couple of years I have picked up some basic phrases, enough to order beer and direct a taxi... Reading? hahaha
|
|
|
Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 21, 2005 11:33:30 GMT 7
I downloaded mine via Limewire. Why don't you try that if you have broadband access? It is a p2p file sharing program, very useful.
The pimsleur wont help you read, though, except pinyin.
And welcome to Raoul's!.
|
|
|
Post by MK on Sept 21, 2005 12:52:11 GMT 7
My method for learning characters is mainly through rote/repetition; I use 20X20 pads of squared paper which are sold for this purpose, I think... Each new character gets written out 20 times like so: Wo (3) ÎÒ ÎÒ ÎÒ ÎÒ ÎÒ ÎÒ ÎÒ ÎÒ ÎÒ ÎÒ ÎÒ ÎÒ ÎÒ ÎÒ ÎÒ ÎÒ ÎÒ ÎÒ ÎÒ ÎÒ Me Ni (3) Äã Äã Äã Äã Äã Äã Äã Äã Äã Äã Äã Äã Äã Äã Äã Äã Äã Äã Äã Äã You Ta (1) Ëû Ëû Ëû Ëû Ëû Ëû Ëû Ëû Ëû Ëû Ëû Ëû Ëû Ëû Ëû Ëû Ëû Ëû Ëû Ëû Him Like I said, you have to review a lot. I write out problem characters more often, but a couple of times a week I try to write out every character I know just once, i.e. Ò» ¶þ Èý ËÄ Îå Áù Æß °Ë ¾Å Ê® ÎÒ Äã Ëû¡ I also use my computer in two important ways. One is to chat in (very simple) Chinese on MSN with Chinese friends. This is pretty easy if you have the IME, because you can type in Pinyin and the computer will allow you to choose from a selection of characters, with the most likley choices near the top of the list. The other is a chinese character flashcard game I found on the computer at my last school, which you can leave running in the background while you work etc. I don't know where it came from, but I am goinmg to have a hunt to see if I can find it for download anywhere, because it really helps. Oh, and this is the book I use for characters: 500 basic Chinese charactersIt may have the man from del-monte on the front, but it's really good.
|
|
|
Post by Lotus Eater on Sept 21, 2005 14:25:36 GMT 7
I also try to write in characters for SMSs to Chinese friends - or some western friends I know can read hanzi. Makes me look up stuff and when they reply, I spend ages translating - it's very good for me! I also have Chinese friends who don't speak English, so they email me in Chinese and I have to translate. I too write out the characters, and I have made my own flash cards - I intend to take them out with me when I know I am going to be sitting waiting, but frequently forget. I do take my textbook with me to palces like the hairdressers, and it always comes on train, plane trips. 1. I can study while I am travelling 2. Travelling Chinese seeing it always take a look and then start talking to me - and I learn different words! My electronic dictionary has a 'user dictionary' function where I write phrases and food things in that I want to remember as well. These will then come up in the review/test section of the dictionary. (It's a mean dictionary - can give me tests!) Best way to learn - make friends with non-English speakers!
|
|
|
Post by Stil on Sept 21, 2005 18:31:25 GMT 7
Chinese friends that don't speak English are an excellent way to learn especially gf/bf, but it also helps if you have some Chinese English teachers that are willing to speak Chinese to you. Many of my friends will speak to me on the phone in Chinese. Sometimes I don't know how to answer in Chinese so I answer in English but the conversation can still continue in Chinese. The phone is very good for your listening skills because there are no body language ques to help.
One of my problems that I'm sure many of you share, is that the local population doesn't use putonghua. They know it, so if you are speaking directly to them that's fine but wondering around the city you just don't hear it.
I find that when I speak faster I'm more likely to be understood. I think it's because they have to listen to a whole phrase rather then pick apart the pronunciation of individual words. A couple drinks never hurt my Chinese either.
So I guess that's my advice - get drunk and wonder around town speaking really fast.
|
|
|
Post by Nate M on Sept 21, 2005 20:46:06 GMT 7
I've got my accelerated beginning Chinese class started back here in the States. Like ilunga, I've got a teacher that isn't all that great a teacher but is really hot, so that kinda makes up for it. You can tell she was raised in the PRC, because of her teaching style. It's kinda frustrating, because right before my class there's a Japanese class in the same room and you can tell that the teacher is awesome, (AND cute), because the students are just having an excellent time in there. No such joy in our class, so I'm a bit jealous.
Anyways, I've found the "write this word 20 times" method to work like crap. You might learn the individual words, but often it's difficult to place them in context. It's the same problem 95% of our students had, because that's the way they learned English, "write this 20 times and you'll be fluent". It generally doesn't work for them, and I don't think for the most part it will work for us. Writing the word 3 times in context will do about as much good as writing a word 50 times by itself.
There are some good options for learning language. If you go to one of those Xinhua bookstores and look in the foreign books section, you should find tons of "Learning Chinese" books. What I would recommend is looking for a set of books with several components, most importantly a textbook, a workbook, and a character workbook, (sometimes those two are combined into one). This way, you'll be able to get instruction on how to use the language, how to write the characters, and how to use those characters in writing.
I've combined this with the old-fashioned "language exchange" and found it to be pretty practical, (when I had the time to study, that is). Although having friends who spoke little English helps in the way that you have to use the language, if you're looking for a study partner, I'd search for the kid who has the best English you can find, especially when you're starting out. That way they'll be able to explain the concepts to you, and what you're doing wrong, a hell of a lot better than you would get if you just chose the first dumbass off the street who shows up on your doorstep and says "我想老外朋友“.
|
|
|
Post by Lotus Eater on Sept 21, 2005 21:01:57 GMT 7
The university gives me Chinese classes for two hours a week. I found the 2 hours hard going at one stretch, so broke it up into 2 x 1 hour lessons (which unless I stop them generally go over time). This gives me time to do the homework and revise the work we have done before the next class. My teacher was a grad student last semester and is this semester (same girl) a teacher in the university. We get on well together and her English is excellent, so when I am stuck she can explain minute differences in usage to me. Her being very attractive hasn't had an effect on my learning motivation - I'm not sure what you guys are on about here. But just the lessons is nowhere near enough - getting out there talking is the only way to really have any fluency, reading all the signs in the street helps with characters (quite suddenly you'll see the same character leaping out at you frequently, so look it up and add to your knowledge) and then studying gives the depth. The joy of being able to read more than one character in a sign, or understand a few words of a sentence is amazing!! I had a major thrill yesterday - I actually managed to read one whole item on the menu at the restuarant. Before I knew the characters for yang rou, zhu rou, niu rou, ji rou, yu, and the character for vegetables, so sort of knew what I was ordering. I also knew the names of my favourite dishes and could order those. But - yesterday I was able to read the whole name of one of the dishes and so for the sheer pleasure of saying it, ordered! Small things like this also motivate! But studying with someone else is really useful - keeping each other honest!
|
|
|
Post by Nate M on Sept 21, 2005 21:24:25 GMT 7
Just one clarification: you speak Chinese is a very Australian way. Completely different languages.
With that caveat, I agree with a lot of what you said: using the language in the real world is the best way to learn it. Without that, all the work you do studying is going to be kinda wasted.
|
|
|
Post by MK on Sept 22, 2005 6:42:38 GMT 7
The rote learning style of writing out the word X number of times works well for me. Different strokes for different folks. Speaking of stokes, it also helps you just to get a feel for how characters should be written. I can make a decent guess at stroke order for new characters already.
However, it's just one ingredient. I do put what I have learned into practice in the real world, reading signs, through MSN chats, text messages etc.
|
|
|
Post by Lotus Eater on Sept 22, 2005 6:46:08 GMT 7
Nate (A USAnian for heavens sake! A people who mangle the language atrociously and can't even spell simple 4 letter words like a**e) tells me that: Australia hua is not English!!!! Huh? I'll have you know that Odaliyaren mei you kou yin. (We don't have an accent) Mostly because we can't hear it - no-one hears their own accent. I thought one of my problems speaking was that my vowels were a little long, so tried to shorten them in Chinese, but my teacher and friends tell me that length of vowel is no problem. I do (often) use English grammatical construction which doesn't always work. So many pitfalls - I have the deepest sympathy for my students and so find it really difficult to get frustrated with them. I have the same problems, and I am just as lazy!! How can I berate them for doing as I do? Stroke order is useful, as is understanding what the radical means. There are several places on the net to download the radicals and their meanings.
|
|
|
Post by ilunga on Sept 22, 2005 18:54:12 GMT 7
I'm not sure of the cute teacher likes me or hates me. I find the listening class boring so usually spend the whole time practicing my characters, not paying attention unless I really have to. Lately she's started picking on me to do all the exercises. She never seems to ask the koreans. I also can't pronounce the 'c' and 'z' sounds properly (or so she says) and have been advised to stay behind after class to practice with her Couldn't today as I was playing tennis. One thing that I find really useful for practicing han zi recognition is QQ. If you know the pin yin, it's pretty easy to find the character. More often than not, it's the first one on the list. Working out what the other person says back to you can be a problem though, so it's usually a case of me writing han zi and them writing back in English or pin yin. I have an awful memory and need to go over the characters at least every other day, or they just become weird squiggles again.
|
|
|
Post by con's fly is open on Sept 22, 2005 19:43:37 GMT 7
Yeesh. I'll stick to eavesdropping on the kindie classes for now.
Harsh mistress? Good teacher!
|
|
|
Post by Stil on Sept 22, 2005 22:36:13 GMT 7
I'll have you know that Odaliyaren mei you kou yin. (We don't have an accent) Umm, kou3 yin1 is accent. kou3 yin2 is blowjob The sentence can also be read Australians don't have blowjobs. Watch those tones when you say this.
|
|
|
Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 22, 2005 22:44:16 GMT 7
What's a blowjob?
|
|
|
Post by Stil on Sept 22, 2005 22:56:17 GMT 7
|
|
|
Post by Mr Nobody on Sept 22, 2005 22:59:57 GMT 7
Heh.
FYI - Around here, they use "la-la" for lesbian.
|
|
|
Post by ilunga on Sept 22, 2005 23:27:21 GMT 7
My ex used that too. And she was for all of about three weeks
|
|
|
Post by MK on Sept 23, 2005 8:16:23 GMT 7
*vain attempt to keep thread on track*Ilunga, to work out what they say back when you are stuck, simply have a browser window open to Alta Vista Babelfish, set to Chinese Simple to English, cut and paste, and there you go. A bit of rough and ready translation at times, but you can get the gist. ...actually, I changed my mind. let's hear more about Ilungas lesbian ex...
|
|
|
Post by con's fly is open on Sept 23, 2005 22:39:01 GMT 7
"Lalalalala" is how I teach the phonics of that letter. Now I'll burst out giggling every time, especially if there's a woman with the wrong haircut in the room.
|
|
|
Post by Nate M on Sept 23, 2005 22:42:20 GMT 7
another reference that's a billion times better than bablefish is rikai.comThis one keeps the original characters there, and when you move your mouse over the characters they'll give you the pronunciation in pinyin as well as several possible meanings for the word.
|
|